Jim gets coached by Shane

Shane Leaning: Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to Coaching Done Well with me, Leaning here in Shanghai and my good friend, Jim Thompson. Jim Thompson, how are you doing today?

Jim Thompson: Well, I'm doing good. Shane, I usually talk about the weather, but I want to just give you a thank you. I don't think our folks, international audience knows, you know, we do this, our time zones are different. This is the beginning of the day for me. It's right now it's eight o'clock. I can look at all those sides. I love the side of it. I don't even know how it causes that, but that's kind of cool. eight o'clock in my day. It's the beginning of my day. you know, Shane does the show at the end of his day every day. So it's in the evening and know, part of life is showing up. And he just doesn't show up. My good friends, at eight o'clock, he shows up and he's present. He's got a smile on his face and he's engaged. And, I hope you don't take that for granted. I hope you don't take that for granted that Shane's not only a wonderful colleague and just ⁓ fountainhead of wisdom, but ⁓ believes in this stuff, this idea, an idea of coaching Dunweld. He's shown up at the end of the day, you know, at the end of the day, eight o'clock. 9 o'clock, whatever the time difference is in Shanghai. I thank you and appreciate that. And I hope our international audience notes that and appreciates that in you and for you and with you, Shane.

Shane Leaning: Well, thank you so much, Jim. That's so kind of you to say. And honestly, it just works out better this way, Jim, because Shane in a morning is not the same shame leaning as you might know. My wife, Emma will attest to that. I'm not great in the morning. So this is definitely the right way around because you have great energy and it's 8 a.m. there now. Right. But sometimes it's 7 a.m. when you're tuning in there. So thank you, Jim, for for showing up. It's it's great to be able to do this. We've done this. for nearly a couple of years now. What a joy.

Jim Thompson: It is, and what do they say? The joy is in the journey, isn't it? The joy is in the journey.

Shane Leaning: Absolutely. And welcome, also, to people who are showing up with us around the world. This is one of the true joys is Jim and I were talking just before we came on the show and Jim was saying, you know, getting emails, you know, every month from different people from around the world thanking. Thanking us for the show, thanking our amazing guests that we have on as well for sharing the ideas around coaching done well. And it's really a really, truly a privilege to have you join us, whether you're joining on LinkedIn live we broadcast this out, or whether I know a lot of you are joining, listening to the podcast feed, whether that's on YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. It's really, really a privilege to have you here. LinkedIn now because we always get a few who are joining us in live. I can see you. I can see you there. They're lurking in the background. So if you're there on LinkedIn, do ⁓ hi in the comments. It's always good to get your comments. We always bring them into the show each week. So today we've got quite a special, a special ⁓ little We haven't got a guest and it's Jim and for the second time in a row.

Jim Thompson: you

Shane Leaning: Jim, wonder like, you know, those who are listening, they will know that last in our last episode together was a very special episode, especially for me, because I got to get coached by you. I reflected on some of my practice in terms of leading some teacher development church of goal. And we worked on it together and I found it really useful and actually implemented some of those solutions into my, into my next sessions, which I was really, really, really chuffed about, but, ⁓ Why don't you kind of give a background as to happened in between then and how we've come up with what we're going to do today.

Jim Thompson: Well, thanks, Shane. What a privilege it is to be your colleague and be your friend here. know, Jim Knight that we don't know what it looks like when we do what we do. We don't know what it looks like what we do. And that that pertains to coaches. So when we hold the coaching conference. Do we know what it looks like when we do what we do? And Gym Night Offer also offers this powerful interrogatory. What does improvement look like? And for us, coaches, what does it look like to get better as a coach? What does it look like to get better as a coach? And finally, Dylan Willems said the difference between an effective teacher and a highly effective teacher is not what they know. But what they do, well, wouldn't that be the same for the coach? The difference between an effective coach and a highly effective coach is not what this coach knows. I know a lot about coaching. I read the 27 books. You know, I've listened to 47 podcasts. Well, good. That's good. But the difference is not what you just know, but what you do. how do you find out as a coach what you're doing and how you're doing it? Well, I, you know, I, what is it? The idea of Occam's razor. There's, there is a straight line between two points. And Jim Knight says that in the definitive guide to instructional coaching. He if you want to get better, you need to video your coaching conferences. You just need to video your coaching conferences. gave us an opportunity. My definition of luck, Shane, is when preparation meets opportunity. And so we hit this wonderful opportunity. You me the privilege of coaching you live. And this is live today, folks. This is live TV without commercial interruption. You gave that privilege of coaching you, and was recorded. And so what I've done in the interim since that show is as I've looked at that video several times. And that's the beauty of video. You can watch it a lot. You can watch just pieces of it. You can go back. Unlike a principal's observation when it's kind of like, wow, what was that all about? And I've watched this several times and. I've thought about those reflection questions that I've shared with Shane that Shane has that he's going to pose with me. it pretty profound upon looking at that video of how would I want to work so I can be a better coach. And so I know it's a notion of folks out there. But we're going to do this live folks. I'm, Hey, I'm 76. God, if an old guy can do this and make himself vulnerable internationally. Uh, you know, don't even have a compensation package here. We don't even have a sponsor giving us like a Mercedes or anything like that. got it. It just bridges friendship. You know, here, if I can do it, you know, I hope we invite you to be vulnerable a little bit. and to video your coaching conferences and to review them and to kind of find a goal from the video of your conference, your coaching conferences, something you want to work on, something you want to work on. I think that's what bottom line is what we're all about. ⁓ all about getting better, getting better. And this is, this is, have to thank Shane. for this opportunity today because we're modeling what we hope other people, we're inviting other people. We're not saying you must, but we're inviting you and we hope some people will take the invitation. You know, you can lead a horse to water. You can't make them drink, but you can salt their oats. So we're going to try to salt your oats a little bit today here, good friends. And so you might want to drink from that water or videoing your coaching conference. So that's my story, Shane, and I'm sticking to it. Okay, I'll turn it over to you. ⁓

Shane Leaning: Well, I appreciate you sharing that, Jim, and we're going to do a little different today because I usually keep an eye on the LinkedIn feed, but I'm going to purposely not look at it for the first part while we get into this conversation so I can focus in on what you're telling me, Jim. And it's a little bit different just to kind of, I've been thinking about this, is this idea that you coached me. And it would be, it's not a usual thing for the person who was coached to then coach their coach the thing that they were being coached on. So I think this is fascinating. This may be a world first here and I'm really looking forward to doing it, but to give listeners a bit of an idea about the kind of questions I'm going to be asking and pulling some questions from Jim's great book, Video Coaching Done Well. and some of the ideas that are taken from that book. So these are not new questions. These questions that are established that you can use too. And you will probably notice a similarity between the way I ask questions today and the way Jim asked questions to me before as well. And that's purposeful. So you can kind of get to understand that process a little bit. So Jim, you've videoed our session. last time, a lot of people have watched it back. I know that you've watched that you've watched it back a few times. Now, in addition to what you just shared there, are there any other stories that you would like to share around this coaching conference that you videoed?

Jim Thompson: You know, I hadn't done this in a long time. I'm going to be honest with you. I hadn't done this, you know, and you get out of practice. You know, there some people out there that are ⁓ everything, every conference they've got. You know, if you were a football coach or a coach of a team, you're videoing everything. You're looking at it all the time. Well, ⁓ not suggesting it, but I hadn't videoed a coaching conference that I've done in probably a year or so. And so, you know, I just needed to kind of, it was kind of like, okay, we kind of like riding a bike. Okay, you know, but I was, you know, when you get on that bike for the first bit, little wobbly, so I was going, I don't want to hump up, but it was something I needed to do. It was kind of an imperative with our work if we are serious. And I know we are, and I know our audiences, and we want to get better. We want to get better at this craft. Uh, and, so there, it was kind of like a bit of a intrepidation, whatever, but it was, it was, it was okay. It was a little fear, you know, it a little paradox that I had. I was confident, but a little fearful of what's going to happen, which is good. think you need that. Madeline Hunter talked about that level of concern, you know, just couldn't go into like, oh, this is going to be easy as a Sunday morning. but you don't go into it shaking. So there's that, that some bit of attention there.

Shane Leaning: It sounds like you were coming into this conversation with discomfort, but a useful level of discomfort, something that just pulls you out just a little bit, just unsettles the ground so that you can, just enough for you to be present, ⁓ also kind of feeling the moment. Let's really thank you for sharing that, Jim. ⁓ tell me ⁓ you reviewed back the video and you watched a few times, tell me what goal have you identified that you might want to work through? in today's conversation.

Jim Thompson: Well, Shane, this is remarkable. I didn't hit this going to about the, ⁓ identified this about the third time I watched the video, my video. It was like, okay, you you like to watch a movie three or four times and maybe each time say, well, I didn't remember that, you know, and, or you read a book, the second or third or fourth, I didn't remember. What about this? Like, Ooh, I missed that. And Shane, as I looked at the video, you remarked several times that this was new material that you were doing, new content. you mentioned that several times throughout our conversation. you talked about that, you know, when you're looking this, you're looking at confidence, you're looking at how, how's it, thinking how's this gonna work, how's this gonna go off? And, and, And I don't want to say I dismissed it because that would have some kind of malice. didn't intentionally dismiss it. But back at it, ⁓ didn't have fresh repertoire in mind about this idea of a beginner's mindset. And ⁓ just have it like, well, Jim, when you work people, coaches ⁓ and teachers, don't initially they all have a beginner's mindset, Jim. I ⁓ of lost, I lost that thought that ⁓ some, ⁓ dealing with something for a very first time. the have a term for it, it's called ⁓ Shoshin. it's kind of describes any task from a mindset. You do not abandon your expertise, but you hold it lightly. I didn't have that repertoire with me. And I couldn't even engage, I didn't even engage you in even a beginning conversation honoring where you were. noting how appreciative I was that you surfaced something so essential in the conversation and maybe noting that it might be helpful in subsequent conversations with you to explore more how you felt a beginner with this new material. sharing some positives with it. There's this book called Zen Teacher by Suzuki. And he says that in the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities and the experts mind, there are few. I should have had that repertoire surface so I could at least start engaging you and then listening, your cognitive pump to kind of listen back to you. So I didn't have that. So the goal is that I need to work on building up that repertoire Shoshin, the beginner's mindset when that surfaces ⁓ a coaching conversation. that's of like, and I didn't get that about the third time I watched the video, Shane.

Shane Leaning: Thank you for sharing that. And can I ask then, if you were to kind of think about where you are now, Jim, then, where you are now with using that mindset or where you were in that conversation, if we were to use those wonderful scale questions that we've been gifted by so many before, as on a scale of one to 10, where are you right now with this goal of addressing that mindset? Where would you have placed yourself? I'm curious.

Jim Thompson: Well, not high, not high. a three or four, because it's not something I've thought about in a while. Should have thought about it? Yeah. ⁓ Should continue thinking about it a lot more? Because when ⁓ we somebody for coaching, asking them to be vulnerable. Because there's like, going to happen here? I'm kind of, where are we going? I'm a little shaky. You know, you got my back, Jimmy, you know, can I trust you? I'm a little scared. don't know. You know, when I tell you I'm only a three on this, I'm just beginner here. You're going to be okay with that? and, know, ⁓ Angelou said, people will forget what you say. People will forget what you do, but people will never forget how you make them feel. And isn't this idea of listening with empathy, coming forward saying, we're both beginners here in some way and I'm with you I'm not going to leave you and I got your back. And haven't thought about that in good way. ⁓ I to tell you right now, probably about a three, Shane.

Shane Leaning: Yeah, well I appreciate you sharing that Jim and I agree it takes a lot of vulnerability to to go there and there's a beautiful thing in that coaching relationship and about trust that to allow people to say they are at. And I can hear in your voice, I can hear in your tone of voice and your actions, Jim, that this is something that you've thought about a bit. You seem quite passionate about this reflection. I know you've been reflecting on it a lot as well, because even before this call tonight, you've messaged me a few times to think about it together. So. ⁓ If you're a three at the minute, I wonder what it would look like. That's not like what would it look like if you were, I don't know, like a six or a seven. Let's not go for a 10, but what would it look like to be a six or a seven with this particular goal?

Jim Thompson: Well, it's a great question. First thing I'd go is I want to, I'd want to listen to you more about, this is what's on my mind where I am with this goal. And you're my coachee, you know, I think the first thing is I got to listen to you. Okay. Well, what's on your mind is you hear what I'm saying and to what degree you might accept this invitation of my need to help me. And guess if you, if you accepted it, if you accepted this invitation, Maybe one thing, and if you didn't, we'd say, well, where can I be more helpful to you then? I, you know, I don't want to be presumptuous. This is where I'm at, but how do you say, no, Jim, it's nice. It's kind of cool. And someday we'll have a pint together and we'll talk about that. But right now this is more on my immediate needs. So I think listening to you and finding out where you are is the key thing. But if you showed some interest in this, I think there was an article by Peter DeWitt and his colleague on Shoshin. And it's just a couple pages. And I'd probably throw that your way. And they have elements in it of openness, the positives of a beginner's mindset and openness, curiosity, humility, presence, and non-attachment. And it's a short article, three or four hour pages. You know, it's not like 76 pages. You're not going to send your coachee some doctoral dissertation, you know, with 46 pages. Nobody's got time to do it, but this... And then have you read it and say, what's your take on it? What do you think? How might weave into our coaching conversations? in our partnership, we're helping to advance this goal. I don't know. That's kind of where I'd be. ⁓ What's on your mind as I say all this stuff, my friend?

Shane Leaning: Well, listening with intrigue. mean, and of course, I'm instantly drawn to wanting to read this ⁓ that you've mentioned already, Jim. So that's something that ⁓ interested in. But I'm wondering, I'm now in your coach, in your coach mindset, say we were going into our next session, how would want to bring this up? When would be the time where you would feel this would be, appropriate to bring this up and can you think of any I guess strategies that might help you to bring this into your coaching conversations, this kind of conversation.

Jim Thompson: It's a great question Shane, I appreciate it. I think I'd have to go back to the video and then you raised the idea of new material and want to, ⁓ I to ask him more about that. What's on your mind about that? you know, when you deal with brand new content for the first time, what are the pluses and what are the minuses? would it help for as you you looked at new material the next time? Would it help you to to the positives of this? You know, this idea of appreciative inquiry that Chris and John Campbell talked about. where you say, ⁓ to me about what's look like when you're at your best. So I would turn that idea when you'd be working with new material or new content, not to the challenges, but say, well, what are some things that would help you to be at your best with this new material and maybe be mindful of these things that it would bring you to with new something new would bring you to an openness looking at with fresh eyes. It would maybe spark your curiosity. It would focus you you'd be more present at it and kind of talk about some ahas and some eurekas that stem from doing something from the first time that would embolden you, that would give you confidence, that would kind of give you jet fuel this. What are you thinking about this? If I'm rambling too much, can cut me off right now and send me to an institution.

Shane Leaning: Never, Jim. And I appreciate you sharing in this open way. And I appreciate it doubly because it was me who you were coaching. So this is an interesting setup, right? Like you're reflecting on a conversation we had, which I think is a wonderful thought experiment. I'm very grateful for that. I'm also cognizant of the fact that was the coach. ⁓ Chi in this situation. And I keep in my mind, I'm in two zones at the minute, aren't I? I'm helping you think through your thoughts. And we can do that because we have this great level of psychological safety between us, which I really value. But also, I'm in co-chi mode and I'm trying to absorb what you're saying here as well and think about where it takes me as the coachee, which is exciting for me. And I'd like to maybe come back to that as we just kind of draw this first part of our conversation to a close, if I can, stay in coach mode. I'm curious this short reflection and seeing yourself on video and watching yourself in this way. How has this reflection impacted your future intentions as a coach, Jim? And this was a great question that you to me as well. So I would really value your on that. How does this reflecting on your video coaching conference impact your future intentions as a coach?

Jim Thompson: That's a powerful question. we talked about last year, last time, when change the word goal to intention, we've got a nuance there that's kind of interesting. ⁓ So welcome the question. I welcome the question. I guess. would ⁓ and it rekindles. Maybe the word, the verb I'm looking for is rekindle. Cause at one time I had this, one time I had this. It rekindles, not just the notion, but The absolute necessity, and I took four years of Latin in high school many years ago, and I don't remember too much, but there's this ⁓ Latin phrase called sine qua non. And the sine qua non is the indispensable object. And that a sine qua non of really building a relationship, really building relationship. is kind of listening with empathy. Just not listening, but listening. And when we, and so many of our folks are just our beginners. And when we invite them trying to kind of let them know a notion upfront that I think the beginner's mind to let them know beginner's mindset is something that's less than I'm not the expert near to being. So that's less, but I want to learn from it. I want to grow from where you as a beginner, because I'm a beginner too, and to kind of nourish and cheerlead such notions as openness and curiosity. And then dancing with this idea, dancing with this idea of not to abandon my expertise, but to treat it lightly. I'm not sure how that plays out, but I wanna... think more about it, maybe in future shows talk to you more about it and talk to some of our folks more about it. it's something I want to dance with a little bit. So, uh, that that's a beginning answer to a great question. What's on your mind with this, Shane?

Shane Leaning: Firstly, thank you, Jim. This has been a really, really wonderful conversation for me. I appreciate your openness. I appreciate your curiosity your own approach. And I appreciate the trust you put in me in being able to listen to you reflect as well, Jim. So this has been, this has been really great. So thank you for that. I'm ⁓ now curious about... how to hold that beginner's mindset or how to hold our knowledge lightly. And it feels to me particularly timely right now in an age where we are moving into this AI age. We can't go too long without talking about AI where can be summoned at any point and are already questioning. the place of knowledge our schools, which is still important, but almost important than that and coming to stronger light is the idea of criticality, ⁓ critical And what us human is not an authoritative take on knowledge. This is it. This is what it is, but a nuanced. curious take on knowledge, which I think you just demonstrated there and which I'm very ⁓ very excited to explore. And I'd love to, I just can see it the side here, like we've got a few people joining us online. And of course, Jason Booton is here, which is just wonderful to have you on the show again, Jason. And Jason. ⁓ couldn't have said something better. says, the word curious comes from Latin. It's derived from cura, which means care. I feel the curiosity in this conversation shows genuine care. ⁓ that speak to you, Jim?

Jim Thompson: I'm appreciative of it. Jason is such a good friend. mean, they're just a, a piece, you know, Stephen Covey said we have to live, love, learn and leave a legacy. You know, Jason Booten and you too, Shane and so many of our other are leaving this legacy not just wisdom. But goodness, but goodness. know, ⁓ and I talked about being a witness to the good. My God, you just turn on the television, the news. Now than ever, we need to be witness to the good. And there's so many people in this schoolhouse and especially children that just are... just to need a witness for the good. So Jason is one of those witnesses to the good out there and I'm appreciative of his comments and of him.

Shane Leaning: Hmm, me too, me too. And Jim, I have to ask you, how did that feel to be coached and to be, you know, to be asked a few questions on your video? Like what, what was that process like for you? Cause the, know what it was like for me and reflected on that last time, but I'm really interested to hear your perspective.

Jim Thompson: Well, Shane, we trust each other. You know, we have a good relationship with each other. There's, know, like I mean, we have a commercial in New York and the United States. I'm in good hands with all state. Well, I'm in good hands with Shane, you know, and that takes a while to earn that. just don't immediately figure that out. doesn't doesn't. ⁓ not instantaneous. I mean, it's talk about its relationship building. think that's something that AI has absolutely no promise at helping us do is to build relationships. and give us a lot of knowledge, knowledge, a lot of different disparate things. we, I think we are looking for this conversation. You know, this idea of cheers where everybody knows your name and everybody's glad you came. I think that's why this, I don't know if they have it in China, the Starbucks. Starbucks are just packed with because the cup of coffee,

Shane Leaning: ⁓ they do. They do.

Jim Thompson: And the conversation is something we savor. We savor to be there for each other, to be present for each other, to give grace to each other. you did that all. You did that. This is our Starbucks today. You know, I don't have the cup of coffee, but I am so grateful to it. This is a priest of inquiry, a priest of inquiry.

Shane Leaning: Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this and always enjoyed this space, Jim. And I hope for those listening in that that was useful for you too. I'm sure it was, it was so... so useful for me. can see Jason found it useful and I know so many others hopefully will find it. Do you have to kind of close us out Jim, do you have a call to action like if you could make an ask of those listeners based on kind of what we've learned over this series and in our conversation today, like what would you, what ask would you make of those who are tuning in today?

Jim Thompson: think there's this song from Abba called, if I'm wrong, then my listeners can send your complaints to Shane, okay? But I think it's called Take a Chance on Me. ⁓

Shane Leaning: That's Abba, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty terrible at music, I'm sure that's Abba.

Jim Thompson: a chance on this idea and ideal of getting better, ⁓ videoing your practice and sharing it. If not only, you know, with yourself or a colleague, take a chance on it. There are things in life taking a risk. And I think is one of them because this is the ultimate beneficiaries are going to be children. Because that's, you know, what's the primary directive of coaching done well? ⁓ to advance student success and well-being, to advance student success and well-being. And I don't know how you do it without coaching done well. I just don't know how you do it.

Shane Leaning: Yes. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more, Jim. I love that. Take a chance on me. And it's a few people have, I know are leaning into this and using video in their practice. can see people already chatting in the comments too. Thank you also, Orla Dempsey for joining us. Orla is a wonderful coach helping a lot of leaders I know, She's also, I was very lucky to be coached live on. podcast with of you are going to have to come on to the show and talk us through practice one day. But all this says it was beautiful to watch creating that safe environment to share and sharing that with us today. Thank you to you both. And Jason says a graceful conversation. Well, I'm just really touched that you've decided to share that time with us. So thank you so much to of to Jason to everyone else who's who's joined us on the show. And we got Quite a season still ahead of us, haven't we Jim? We are gonna get back to our conversations with world leading coaches and thinkers in this space. Do you wanna tease out a few of those names, Jim? I'm excited.

Jim Thompson: We've got rock stars coming out. mean, mean, get your, what they call, your, tape your BCRs. This is going to be muscle. A week from today, April 9th, we have a truly dynamic duel. I was lucky in 24 when I presented Jim Knight, they have dinner at New Orleans and I sat between these two giants. Bill Summers and Steve Barkley, I mean, were just giants. I know Shane's getting a giant on later. Later on, he'll talk about that in a minute. I know on May 7th, we've got Dr. Kim Richardson and Dr. Darrell Meikle. 21st, I know Shane's got some good people and I know on June ⁓ we have got the trifecta, the trifecta on June ⁓ ⁓ coaching ⁓ We've got Sarah Cottingham, Haley Hughes and Adam Kolbic their brand new book, which is good stuff out there. It's called Coaching for Adaptive Expertise. We have got the best and the brightest, the best of them. We get so many emails, fans of the show saying, know, we listen to your show because you have the very best out there and you're honest and spontaneous about what you believe in. ⁓ So we got some good people rocking on the machine. What are your thoughts? You've got some people coming on, I know.

Shane Leaning: We have, yeah, we've got one in confirmation. I'm not going to say, but really, really big name. We've got another amazing person, Dean Claydon coming at the end of this month. in Shanghai with me here, but he is doing great work with the Growth Coaching International team with Sarah Cole across Asia. So it's going to be great to hear his thoughts, but yeah, we, wow. What wonderful guests we've got taking us up to the summer. ⁓ so please stick around with us, whether you are joining in live on LinkedIn, whether you are tuning in on YouTube, or listening back on Spotify and Apple podcast, it is an absolute joy every time, to have you here. So we hope to see you for our next. Coaching done well live and until it's taking a chance. think take a chance on me is the theme of ⁓ the, ⁓ the evening in the morning. And I think Jim Thompson is going to sing us out.

Jim Thompson: don't want me singing, but ⁓ know ⁓ a bunch of joyous holidays for whether it Passover or this is Holy Week Easter or whatever else. We wish you many blessings and the great good grace and know that we are so appreciative of you tuning in and being fans of the shows. Thank you so much.

Shane Leaning: Thank you. Thanks everyone, see you next time. Take care, Jim.

Jim Thompson: Take care, Shane.