Good morning. Well, good afternoon. We've got a fabulous thing happening today is that we've got a special guest in yet a third time zone. We've got Shane Leaning with us today in Shanghai.

So we have Shanghai, we have UK, we have Canada. It's a busy place today. How are you, Shane? How's it going?

Yeah, I'm very good. And what a pleasure to be here. We've pretty much got one of those clocks that you put above the hotel lobby, don't we? Those are actually great. I love those. So, you know, we're having a fascinating conversation.

And one of the things that Tara and I try to do with the podcast is we really focus on relationships. And we interview guests from sort of different walks of life. And we focus on how their life experience and their work experience and their passions sort of reflect on relationships. But the interesting thing that is happening about this conversation today with Shane is that it really, yes, I'm sure that we will undoubtedly be talking about relationships, but it also touches on the work that Tara and I hold very near and dear. And that is the work

that we do, supporting and engaging with schools and building school communities. And of course, it looks different in different parts of the world, but we're all essentially speaking the same language. And Shane, I want to read to you Shane's bio. But, you know, beyond the bio, I just want to say that what really has inspired us to bring Shane on the podcast today is his passion for his work, his passion. And that is something that Tara and I kind of live and

breathe every day is the passion for our work, for what we believe in, and for what we try to strive with with everyone, with schools and organizations and families and beyond. So Shane Leaning, an organizational coach based in Shanghai, supports international schools globally. He co-founded We're Collaborative and hosts the chart-topping school leadership podcast, Education Leaders. Previously, he worked as regional head of teaching development for Nord Anglia Education. Passionate about empowering school leaders, he's currently co-authoring

Change Starts Here. As a collective ed fellow, teacher development trust associate, and TEDx speaker, has extensive experience in the UK and Asia, and is a recognized voice in international education leadership. Thank you for joining us today, Shane. Shane Leaning That's a pleasure. And I try not to

cringe too much as you read my- Tara Sweeney Well, it's certainly a lot to be proud of. Sarah Sweeney It really is, yeah. And it's such, it really is a pleasure and a privilege to have you here, Shane. So thank you for joining us.

Shane Leaning It's a privilege for me to be here. Tara Sweeney So, Shane, we're just going to open up with a question about your journey, really. Can you shed some light on what brought you to where you are today? Shane Leaning Yes. So, I've been an educator,

most of my working career, although did a degree in something totally different, which was media production, funnily enough, how things work in cycles, and I'm now a podcaster. But I very quickly moved internationally with my wife and worked in a number of schools, especially out in China, where I live today. And when I was in one school, I kind of got into leadership, got quite interested in leadership, was leading my department, moved into senior leadership. And I had a principal at the time who was quite supportive. And we started running

a few conferences locally at our school. And then as a part of that, like I started to get invited to a few schools around Southeast Asia, which my principal was really supportive of. So I started to go to a few different schools during training. At the time, it was English as additional language, that was kind of my specialist area. And I felt really happy

kind of going to these schools, I, you know, developed my confidence, I felt like, gosh, this is good. And I got really good feedback. And people were like, Oh, this is great, great, Shane. But then a little while later, when I actually got in touch with these schools to check in how they were doing, I had that bit of a moment where I just realized they had a great day with me, but nothing much changed, nothing much changed. And, and that got me

reflecting, well, I've had that a lot with the way I felt professional development is or, or with change in general. And, and that drew me into a slightly, a slightly different line where I start to become more interested in the systems and how kind of communities really embed change into themselves. And I was lucky enough as, as you mentioned there, I went into a regional position working at system level leadership, and been very fortunate for the last year and a half to be working more independently as an organizational coach. And that's kind of where I've been able to really kind of get my teeth into, well, what does make change work in the schools? And at the heart of that, which is what I know

you two are so passionate about is people and communities. And that's what really makes me tick at the minute, kind of how do we make real change, real sustainable, resonant change that, that really sticks. Yeah. Yeah. I just, what you're talking about,

as you say, you know, we're sort of equally passionate about, and I, it really makes me think about when I kind of started working in education, coming from social care and wanting to invite the solution focused approach into education and sharing that as an, as a language, as an approach, as a way that we can interact with each other in the school setting, and thinking about how do you share it? How do you open people up to the possibilities of thinking about that as an approach, as a change? And I also kind of then experienced that, you know, you're sharing it, you've got that enthusiasm, but then how's it maintained, you know? So I'm so looking forward to kind of hearing more from you about what you've learned in terms of how we invite change within to educational settings, how we do that in a way that works, and we're building on what works in terms of what's already there, and that people are open to that, because as I said earlier, she was listening to Brynn, other podcasts that you were on, but talking about, you know, change is constant, and that, you know, that's something really certain is that change is happening all of the time, whether that's teeny weeny, you know, just before, you know, changes happened in between the two minutes that we started or five minutes that we started talking to where we are now, and then how do we, you know, share change in a way that people are open to it, and that change is maintained as well. And I suppose I'm really,

really curious to hear about, in your journey to becoming a sort of international coach in schools and working with leaders, what are you most proud of in relation to sharing this with people and working around change in education in particular? Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe I'd like to take it from two angles in terms of what I'm proud of, maybe. I think if I was to think of an achievement I was proud of, I think it's for sure developing a community around leadership with my podcast education leaders, like, that's something that I'm very proud of as an achievement, bringing people together and having some, you know, really brilliant conversations.

But it's funny, like, I think you think of pride, you think of achievements, but one of the biggest things I think I'm proud of, if I was to really reflect, is that I think I got a lot of things wrong, really, you know, quite seriously wrong early on in my kind of leadership career. And I alluded to that earlier in that I think I was delivering professional development that was engaging, maybe it was even a bit stimulating maybe, but it wasn't actually working. It wasn't actually doing the thing that I was promising, which was, you know, helping you transform your practice or whatever that was. And when you're a teacher or you're a leader, when you kind of deliver something, a part of your identity is attached to that, right? Like, teaching is really personal work, like, you're kind of bearing your soul. And

when you're leading, it feels even more so, like, so you're kind of in a very vulnerable position. So I think the other thing I'm proud of is that I had some people around me who challenged me at the time, and I'm proud that I was able to take on that challenge and kind of redirect and challenge myself and go, do you know what? Okay, that's not working. How do I change? And how do I adapt? And I think that's served me well. And something

I'm quite passionate about now is, you know, always thinking, you know, what have I gotten wrong? You know, what are those, as Amy Edmondson talks about, what are those great mistakes that I've made, you know, and how have they, you know, really changed me, and what am I learning from them? So I guess that change in mindset, I'm quite proud of, because, you know, I had a very fixed mindset before. I'm from like a very typical working class background. We had, you know, this is kind of, this is the way, and that's kind of

how I was brought up. And we kind of, we didn't even do emotional chat or reflection chat very much. It was kind of onwards and forwards. And so I've had to do a lot of on-learning with that.

Yeah, I love that, that adapting, I think is so key, isn't it? And the unlearning and so in terms of that mindset, what did that mindset change to, Shane? What's that, sorry? You're talking about that change in your mindset. So what were those initial changes? What were the initial changes

that you made? Yeah, good question. Very good question. So I think initially it is a realization that happened. So I kind of, I think when you go through a change, you go through like

the culture shock cycle. Have you heard of that? You kind of start, you have the honeymoon period, you think you're kind of going well, and then it just kind of hits you and, you know, like, oh, you know, I'm not very good. And then all of those nasties came in in the usual way, like, oh, I'm not, you know, that imposter syndrome, all of that kind of thing. So I think

when I was first probably reflecting on my practice, that was happening. Now I'm very lucky, I've got the most supportive wife, we've done this whole adventure together internationally. And she's a very reflective person, very, very, very different background to me. So she taught me a lot more of those reflection skills, which, you know, it's quite funny, because I think, you know, my wife is very coach-like, I would say. And if you would have maybe have met me

15 years ago, you'd have probably thought, no, not very coach-like at all. And here's me sitting, doing coaching for a living, which I'd never expected. You have a wonderful, peaceful demeanor. You know, I don't know if you've ever read the book Quiet Leadership, but it's just a fascinating book. And I think of you as a quiet leader,

Shane, you do come across definitely as having a coaching presence, you know, and I'm really glad to hear you say that as educators and as leaders, the only way that we're truly going to experience transformation in the work that we do, is if we embrace and welcome mistakes and change and all of that, you know, and that we recognize that teaching is really about learning. And it's a continuous learning process, and coaching is a continuous learning process. And if we do, you know, if we sit in that fixed mindset, and we don't recognize it as a continuous learning process, that's really where change doesn't happen, right? Because we're so stuck and so embedded in the thought process that we just cannot move from it.

It's reminding me of a lot of when I'm speaking of change with my colleague Ephraim, we talk about resonant change and resonance being really important, this idea of, you know, when we've got change, it, you know, it resonates with you, either it resonates through time, like it lasts, or it resonates, you feel it. But what's interesting is like the kind of opposite of resonance, if you like dissonance, you know, those things that knock us off kilter, you know, they are really, really important. If you can really embrace that dissonance in your organization, and know that it's expected, and it's deeply human, like we just don't have fully just resonant lives, like dissonance is a part of what makes us, whether it's an ache in our belly, because of something we're eating, or whether it's just a thought or a disagreement that's come up, but it's what we do with that dissonance, and how we respond to it that can really make or break our success, I would say. Yeah, yeah. And the ability to, to say, you know, it's kind of, I think that where that fixed mindset

comes from, really a lot of the time in leadership and coaching and teaching is this idea that you've got the leader, and then you've got the recipients of that exceptional knowledge, and that, you know, that very traditional stance, right? But, but really, I think what you're talking about is not that traditional stance, but really this sort of evolutionary, conversational, interactive ability to give and take and reshape conversations and reshape learning. Yeah. And that kind of, as you were talking about that sort of resonance, resonance and dissonance, I was thinking about sort of within schools that, you know, often, I feel really saddened to see that sort of disconnect, you know, between leaders and staff and, you know, that sort of, there's always that kind of low level hum almost of unrest, or a sense of sort of people being unsettled or unhappy, and that the communication across each sort of aspect, you know, leaders, staff, support staff, you know, that there is such a disconnect. And, you know, and always,

I always kind of get such a sort of ache, because it seems so simple. And yet it's, you know, it seems really difficult to start those conversations to bring people together, because ultimately, you know, if we were all able to share what we hoped for within education, you know, we might not all be exactly on the same page, but if we were able to have an opportunity to talk about what's hopeful rather than about just what the problems are, then we'd probably be quite likely to be on very similar page, if not all on the same page, but, you know, why we come into education, probably, you know, we have the same hopes and aspirations and wants for the young people, children that we're educating. And I've just, you know, thinking about, you mentioned your co-author and colleague, Ephraim Lerner, and, you know, in your book, Change Starts Here, one of everything your school needed was right in front of you. And I just love that, such a wonderful title. And you talk about community-led schools,

and just by that title, you know, I'm really visual, but I just see this coming together, just these people, and, you know, the kind of fixing all those sort of fractures and bringing those people together. So yeah, I'd be really curious to hear about the book and about this belief in community-led schools and what difference you see that makes. Yeah. So the book has really come from a, well, from two distinct angles, actually. So

myself and Ephraim, we wrote the book without having ever met in person. Like we were, I don't know how often you two have gone to me, or have you met in person? We've never met in person. I know, I'm going, what? We've never met in person?

We've never met in person. So, well, I wrote a book with someone I've never met in person as well. Like, I mean, this is the world we live in, hey? Look, we met, he was in London, I was in Shanghai, and we met over a very common thing. Now, I was at the time talking about,

and really concerning me, I feel that we are suffering a huge loss of organizational confidence in our schools across the world. And I think it's particularly acute in some places in the UK. It's really quite acute, but across the world, we've got a problem. And I think that's caused by a few different things we could chart it to. Like one,

you see a lot of schools joining big groups, which is a good thing, because that becomes with good economies of scale, it comes with joined up thinking, there's lots of great reasons to be part of a, I used to work for a big multinational group of schools. But in that you inevitably, the school as an entity loses a little bit of its agency. It can't not, right? Like some decisions go outside the school. But at the same time

as that we've also seen over, let's say the last 20 years, a real shift in service providers that sit around schools. We've seen a shift from service providers who provided very discreet, almost kind of product like services or services that the schools couldn't fulfill. So we might've had, you know, textbook groups who produce textbooks for school, like as a simple example, or you might've had some therapists who work, you know, outside the school can't have what the men house. So that, now you've got this big like uptick in commerce around school where there are many companies and organizations saying this is how to do pedagogy. This is how to do, you know, education. Here's how to run

your curriculum. Here's how to train your teachers. Here's how to do all these. And there's a company for everything now, all doing very good things and most very well intentioned and well-serving too. But in that time, like that means you've also got

external forces making decisions on behalf of schools. Let's say you want to do instructional coaching. You might go with one of the instructional coaching groups that exist, or you want to implement cognitive science principles. You might go with someone who helps you do that. You combine that with also policymakers around the world also kind

of having big assays in schools. And that's, that's a good thing. Some things like safeguarding, there's more stringent policies in place that are, you know, protecting the children in the schools. This is a massive outsourcing of knowledge capital. It's a massive outsourcing of decision

making capital. And I think what that's reduced is the confidence of schools to be able to run themselves. And you see this, you know, you see this symptom in schools, you see leaders who are maybe wary of making decision who are, who are averse to change. You know, we hear that education is quite a change averse kind of system, you know, that Ken Robinson kind of talked about that, you know, very famously, you know, education is slow to change. So for me, the answer can only lie in one place. And that

can only lie in the local community because that is where schools exist. They don't, they're not like this, you know, abstract concept. They're a physical thing that exists within a physical group of people. And what is a school? Well, a school is look at this is, I'm sorry,

it's gone going dark around. It's late here. A school is a collection of people, isn't it? It's a collection of students, it's a collection of teachers, it's a collection of parents, it's a collection of support staff, it's community members that surround the school.

It's people, that's what a school is at its essence. And they should be the ones who are feeling confident in making the decisions for themselves. Because we're never going to be able to agree a standardized view of education, no matter even if we found the most perfect, you know, cognitive science way of learning, like we said, this is the way to learn, it will never work on scale, because different people operate in different ways, and those communities are complex. So the best way is to run it locally. And that's kind of where I came

from. Now my co author, Ephraim, he was at the time also focused on something slightly different. He was saying, well, school leaders are feeling like they're having to make all the decisions for themselves, and they've got a community around them, they've got the parents, they've got the students, they, you know, they've got this community. Why on earth aren't we leaning into the community? Why does power within school rest with so few even teachers feeling less

autonomous than ever, the teacher attention crisis around the world is a classic symptom of this. So that's kind of where the drive behind change starts here. That's why the book is called that as well. It's purposely a bit of a call to action, like it's quite bold on the front cover change starts here in the school, like let's stop getting distracted, doesn't engage with external voices. Of course you do. There is a place, there is a time to that. And we try to

explore when is the appropriate time to engage with outside and when is the appropriate time to confidently make decisions for yourself within a school. Really, I love the idea of making change from within. When you speak to that making change from within. And I'm really curious about where that all starts for school. So you've got

you've got your administration, you've got your school leaders. And I really do agree with Efrem when he says leaders, school leaders have to reach out to the school community and engage with the school community so that they can really make meaningful change. Otherwise then it's just the top down approach and they're just telling everybody what needs to be done. But where do we begin with this change from within?

That's a really good question. If we're going to accept that a community led approach is a good approach to change, then the community can come in at one of two points. It can come in at the start, which it rarely does, or it comes in later. And we label that something, we call it buy-in. We say when we're leading a change, right now is the time to generate

buy-in. We have to, we've decided on this change and it's time to bring all of these people along with us. Now, even when I just explain it in the softest term like that to people, people go, gosh, yeah, that doesn't sound quite right. Like there is something that's not inclusive about that, that sounds problematic. And it always is. Whenever I work with a school

and they start to talk about buy-in, there is always a problem. It's always, okay, we've got to get buy-in, but we've got problematic parents, or we've got those staff who sit in the corner of the staff room and are not pretty grumpy about this, or this, or that, or this person, or that person, or this group of people. And then we have to think of tactics. And it becomes a bit of a game of manipulation and conversion, and it's sales tactics, and it's all that kind of stuff. Now, there's another time you can bring them in,

and that's at the beginning. But at the beginning of change, we would call this connection phase. And this is where our model for change would start. At the very beginning of any change process, we start by identifying two things. One, that the initiator of the change

has just a perception, and it's a perceived challenge. So we're not talking about challenges, it's always a perception. And what does a perception mean? It's from one angle. It's

literally a perception. So if we know that this is a perception, then we know to really understand that problem more, you're going to have to look at it from a few different angles. The only way you can do that is by getting the community involved right at the beginning, right at that idea. That requires a vulnerable leader to be able to make that change and say, hey, do you know what? This is a perception. It's not the thing. And then it involves a period

of connection. And that connection can look like a few things. It would most certainly mean bringing your community together and trying to understand each other better. That might mean a few things. One, it might mean, what does change mean to us? Have we ever experienced change before,

and how did that go? We might have a parent community who are deeply disgruntled because they have seen this school chop and change, chop and change, and they have quite a harsh view of change. We might have teachers who are new to the profession, recently graduated, full of energy, and really excited to bring in change. Now, you bring those two change agents together and that is going to cause a clash, right? So let's talk about that. Let's

talk about experience. Where have we been with change? What does it mean with us? And exploring these kind of ideas, there's many kind of questions you can ask, but to try and build a sense of connection, a sense of grounding, a sense of not even common purpose, but just a common understanding of how each person in the community operates. That's going to,

I would say, be the first step for better, more successful and resonant change. Wow. I can really connect to so much of what you're saying, and I love that connection phase. That's just so powerful. It makes me think of there's a solution-based practitioner called

Michael Hereth, and he has a model that's called the Plus model, and this sort of highlights what's happening, I suppose, in a solution-focused interaction, whether that's a one-to-one conversation or whether that's around an organizational change, and the P is the platform, that common purpose. And so the P is the platform, and then the L is the looking, looking to the future. So this is our common purpose. There might be varying perspectives in there to see, and then there's looking to the future. What does that look like? What do we see

as a result of change? And then the U is the utilizing. It's utilizing and looks to the past, but let's utilize, and let's look at what's working already, and what people have experienced with change, what's worked, and then the S is a small step and taking a step towards. But as you were talking, that really came to mind in imagining that people are all a part of that, and people contribute to that conversation in terms of what it looks like.

And I think because I worked directly with students, and I think I was mentioning to you Shane, I came into education very much about the student voice, and I hadn't worked in education at all. And I was like, wow, I thought social care was challenging, and particularly around how it was organized and how communication happened or didn't happen. But I'm very much strongly coming from a student perspective and hope for the presence of student voice, and them being part of this around change, and being part of that community and the voice within that, and having a seat at the table, I suppose. So I'd be curious to hear from your perspective around that as well, in terms of what you're describing and young people being part of that. Yes, for sure. I really like that model by the plus model you said. I've written

it down, so that sounds wonderful. I think there's four key parts of change that I think I would be thinking about of where I would want to really key into the community. And we based some of our work around some design thinking, actually, from the British Design Council. They developed this model called the Double Diamond model. If anyone's a design teacher

or in the design world, a lot of people know this. It's two diamonds next to each other, but what it's representing, those diamonds, you're going from left to right, and you're expanding thought, and then you're contracting, and then you're expanding thought, contracting. A very classic coaching approach really, looking at possibilities, and then coming together, right? And so you could split that into four stages, and these are kind of four stages of change, if you like. The first stage is where you're

going to discover. So we're doing connection, and we're discovering about that challenge. So at this stage, where we're not talking about solutions, we're not talking about ideas, we're going, that sponsors perceive challenge. Is that perceived challenge that someone identified?

Is it a real challenge? Is this the real issue for us, and what else exists? Now, that's a pivotal moment to bring in the community, right? That's a really important time to go, well, there's one way we're going to find out this, and as if we talk to the whole community. The second stage is where you, so you've gone wide with your

discovery, and then you're going to come together, and you're going to define. You're going to define a goal, and that's the goal. So we're still not on solution, but we're saying, what's our goal? Based on what we've just learned about that problem, what do we want our goal to be? And again, that's the second stage where you need the input

of that community. We want the community to be involved in that goal. And that's why we talk about not just defining, but we talk about aligning as well. So as a prompt to kind of bring everyone into that point. Because you know what? If you get to that middle point and

you've got a goal that is defined and aligned with your community, your buy-in conversation all of a sudden doesn't really need to happen, because people understand the why. That takes you into the third step, where you go wide again, this time into develop. So you go, what could we do? What could we do? This requires the community, because the community

at this point have a lot of knowledge. And there's a lot of knowledge in that building, and there's also probably going to be knowledge where you go outside for as well. This is where you can bring in those external voices. That's great, bringing that wider community.

But you're really going wide here and developing potential solutions. And you're thinking big with this. You're thinking, what if there were no obstacles? This kind of thinking, let's just really go wide. And then the last part of change is where you're delivering the

change. And delivery, again, has to be with community. So four stages of change, all which really need the community behind them. The problem is, where does the community usually come in? And most change that happens at the world is right at the end in delivery,

because that's when you need, in inverted commas, the community. You go, oh, no, we need their buy-in now. We need them for this to be successful. Well, if that's the first time you're talking to them, good luck. Yeah. Yes. It's a very, very progressive model.

By progressive, I literally mean progressive. And I can see how what I like about the model is that it has a, I guess what we would call a crowdsourcing type of operational context. We're reaching out. We're reaching out to our community. And we're saying, help us here.

Help us figure this out. Help us to figure this out. We need your input. We're having certain perceptions, but we need your input. And it brings me back, Shane,

to my role as an administrator in schools and to working with staff and to working with parents. And what you've spoken about in terms of kind of butting heads with people sometimes, right? Where it's sort of like, okay, we've got this message that we want to bring you and we need you to get it. We need you to understand it. We need you to learn it.

But this is different. This is about really welcoming people into a thought process and saying, we're going to honor your thinking. And we're going to work together to move forward. I really love that. I would love to pivot a little bit right now. And if that's okay,

and to talk about your podcast, because you've got this amazing podcast, right? It's called Educational Leaders. And you've topped the charts with it. I mean, it's top podcasting countries across the world. You're in the top 10% of all podcasts globally. What would you say

are key factors that have contributed to the success? Yeah, good question. Well, firstly, it caught me out that the podcast is doing so well in that regard because it started as just a passion project, if you like. And maybe that's one of the other key things to anything successful is that you're passionate about it, I guess.

So maybe that's one thing that's come across. I think it's down to community for me. Like, so I've managed coming up to episode 100 in two episodes time. So episode 100, throughout this whole thing, it has just been this wonderful community of practice, whether that be when I first started, and Twitter was a nicer place, and we had some wonderful discussions there to, you know, other social media conversations, to people emailing in and giving me feedback, you know, along the way. Like, I'm very fortunate to get messages

most weeks from people who listen in or subscribe to the newsletter, giving feedback. And that just allows me to kind of reflect and to refine the podcast. And I think one thing that I would say is I'm quite protective of the podcast in terms of the listening experience is very important to me. So I've always had a bit of an ear with sound. I did sound design at university back so we were

talking before, I got a little microphone here and things, you know, I want the experience to feel nice when someone listens in, but I also, you know, very careful as to who comes on the show, the kind of conversations we have. I like to have balance, like I've had a few controversial episodes in the past, and I think that's good. I've had people who disagree with each other, you know, with guests that have kind of followed each other. And I think that's just a wonderful, wonderful place to be. Gosh, I wish I knew what it was that was

making it work. I can only say that it's just maybe a love for it. It's great podcasting, isn't it? YouTube put some wonderful content out onto YouTube podcasting. Having that conversation in this kind of public space is a real privilege and it's a

wonderful space to be in, I feel. Well, it's very exciting and certainly that you're coming up to a hundred episodes. Yeah, congratulations. An amazing accomplishment. Yeah, I'm literally

planning this week on how to celebrate. I need to figure that one out. I'm not asking you, which has been one of your favourite interviews on the podcast and why, but that might be an unfair question to ask you, but you can either answer that one or I'm also curious to, you know, you're getting a lot of feedback from people. So what difference is the podcast making to people? What are you hearing from people? Maybe that's a fairer question to

ask. Well, I don't mind. I can, I can, I can answer both. That's, that's fine. I can talk about one

of my favourites. So, and the reason it was one of my favourites is, and it was not too long ago, actually, I had a conversation with a colleague, Claire Pete on women in leadership and Claire in the episode outright challenged me on my lack of women representation on the podcast. And it, it led to this wonderful reflective discussions on why, on biases that exist on, you know, you know, the challenges for women in leadership. You know, when you just have a conversation that you're just so immensely grateful for, because it challenged you in just all the right ways and made you reflect in all right ways. And you really need those people around you to be able to

have that conversation. And yes, those kinds of conversations, that conversation with Claire was just wonderful. And I made many changes to my guest application process and a few different things off the back of that. So yeah, and that's a wonderful thing about having a podcast, you get to speak to really interesting, insightful people who challenge you who I wouldn't normally be able to pick up the phone and say, Hey, can we chat for an hour? Like,

you know, I'm saying, can I just chat about that? No, I'm a busy person, but having a podcast, someone's more likely to have the time, right? And isn't that, that's wonderful. Yeah. So I'd say that for the first part, the difference that it makes, well, you know,

it's, it's, it's tricky, it's tricky that because in the end it is a podcast. So it's not going to be massively kind of transformational because we know good, like, as I talked about earlier, good professional development, there's a lot of mechanisms that are involved and just listening to a podcast while you're in your run is not going to, you know, be this huge transformative experience. But I do get a lot of people who tune in and say, I hadn't thought of that idea. I liked that practical approach. That's something that I'd really like to take.

You inspired a conversation with someone and it's always a real honor when I see someone share it with someone else. Because when you share something, like it's, you know, you tell someone about something, it's like a gift, isn't it? You know, you tell someone, oh, I recommend this book. I recognize this podcast. It's a gift to the other person,

someone who you, who you like. So when I know someone shared it, I think, gosh, isn't that wonderful? There must have been a bit of value in there that they thought is, is worth sharing to that friend or that, or that colleague. And that's always very special.

Yeah. It is, you know, that I love what you said about having that dedicated opportunity to have those conversations that you normally wouldn't have with these people, but this is a dedicated opportunity. And, and what a great, what a great opportunity to have. Yeah. I would love to do that more. I think more people need to have these

opportunities for conversation. It's something that I'm still trying to figure out. You know, I used to have a live stream part of my podcast, which would be every two weeks I'd have a live session on Twitter. They have like a feature called audio spaces where anyone can join and you have a conversation. And I used to really treasure those, treasure those spaces as like

a very equal space where anyone can join and kind of have a conversation with these great different people that are, that are in. And it's not just one person interviewing. It's a real collaborative approach. It's sad that, you know, with the way X is at the minute, it's not necessarily the safest place for that dialogue anymore.

LinkedIn had a feature. They've discontinued that feature, which was, which is quite sad. So I'm still looking for a new home for those kinds of conversations to happen actually, because I, I do feel it's a privilege, what we do, isn't it? Getting to speak about these things and talk and reflect. And I think of, you know, busy teacher lies, busy leader lies.

How often do you get to kind of get outside your own bubble and kind of have a professional dialogue with someone else? Like it's something that I feel very lucky to engage in. I wonder how we can do it more. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question. So Tara, did you want to say something

or should I pop into a sort of a bit of a question that sort of brings us to a wrap up? Should we go there? I'm just listening to Shane and, you know, so it's kind of preparing for, you know, having this conversation with you and really looking forward to it. And obviously, again, I kind of, I am, I am like the student advocate. I'm the young person. And I was just thinking about,

you know, sharing and what you were saying, Shane, about gifting people. Listen to this, it's really good. And I'm just like thinking about sharing this conversation with, you know, the young people that I talk to in schools and those young people that have a really, you know, really active or want to be really active in change in schools. And I just think, you know, them knowing that there's conversations like this happening and there's, you know, books like your book that's talking about the change that a lot of young people have hopes for this type of, you know, when you tap into the, to the, or you create a space to have a conversation with, with young people about their hopes for education, you know, what they're experiencing it, you know, and it's them that speaks to the type of things that you're talking about, Shane, in terms of how change is approached. And then the difference to that makes to them. So

yeah, that was just what was sort of slight, you know, thinking about them knowing that there is these types of conversations being had and there's people out there that are shifting, inviting change within education, that's going to make a difference to them. You know, I just wanted to share that because yeah, I think gifting them with the knowledge of you, of others, you know, these people who are working hard to co-create something different. It's funny, I wonder how you've got me thinking now about the experience of young people and their experience of change and their inevitably in, you know, the world is fast changing through our lifetime. And it just seems to be getting faster. And it just seems to be, you know,

and certainly the change that we're experiencing in the modern world seems quite polarizing change, it's kind of here to there and here to there, like, so being change-ready and being able to manage that would seem like a very useful skill to explore, right, as in schools. And, you know, I think it's also, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about young people often not feeling that they have a voice, right? And so the importance of including young people in these conversations and, you know, the importance of letting them know that what they're thinking and what they're feeling can truly make a difference in the kinds of decisions that we make and in the kinds of plans that we make in schools and school systems is really critically important. Yeah, so I'm just thinking about that.

So Shane, question, imagine waking up tomorrow morning and you realize that your work is evolving in a way that you've hoped it would grow. What is happening to make you realize that this hope has come true? I just love this question. I love this question. Okay.

Because that's, that's what I'm going to, I'm going to steal for sure. That's a good, that's a good coaching question. For me, like, I would just, I would just love it if I saw more schools who just were, you know, kind of doing things in their way, kind of, you know, that their community was really excited about. And it might be different.

And it might be something that that someone else is not doing, but they're going for it because that's what their community want. And I see, I see some of these schools and sadly some of these schools end up making the news for the wrong reason. There's like some schools in the UK who become, you know, get really attacked for doing something this way or that way or that way. And because, you know, that's not the right thing to do.

And yet some of these schools, when you look, you think, well, their parents like it. They like sending those. The students seem happy. The teachers seem happy. I'm not quite sure what the problem is here. Like, you know,

with, with that system. And I just would like to see a place where schools are more confident, but I would, I would also like to see a place, something that saddens me is that, and I can say this living in China, because it's a little bit different here. The status of the educator in especially many Western countries is so low at the minute. I just can't fathom it. Like in China, it's quite different. You know, if you're a teacher,

if you're a teacher in China, you're a teacher, you're like kind of, you know, I'm not saying the pay is the highest, but the status in society is seen as vitally important. And you're, you're an important part of society and deeply respected. And I feel in many cultures around the world, we're almost tried to be put off teaching, like in a way, like that's, that's, that's not something to aspire for or teachers are not to be respected for what they do. So I'd love to see it would be wonderful if there was a return of kind of a confidence within the profession, you know, within the sector of education of people feeling proud and the community feeling proud of the educators that are serving the children there as well.

I just think that would be, that would be wonderful. Yeah, I, I am right there with you, Shane. I think that that is something it is. I kind of see it as a bit of a crisis, really, a global crisis that we're not, we're not appreciating our educators enough. And like you say, it's not necessarily even just a

monetary problem, you know, a compensation problem. It really is just a philosophical issue. And I do think that we need to wrap our heads around the fact that these, these positions of responsibility are life changing for people. You know, that when teachers walk into schools in the morning, they are changing, truly changing people's lives in all kinds of wonderful ways. And, and that is not a simple task.

No, no. And I think, you know, thinking about some community, but this wouldn't really be possible. But I think if you spent a day, if everybody had an opportunity, you know, day in the life of, you know, I think, because, you know, as I said earlier, when I came from social care and education, and I was like, wow, you really got to be in it too. It is, I have so much respect for educators. You know, I go in as, as, you know, as a therapist,

you know, working, and I do provide, obviously, training to teaching staff as well, but most I'm in there sort of working one to one. But just being in there and seeing, yeah, I have so much respect for what teachers provide for, you know, it's far, far, far beyond teaching them about something. There's so much more, it's so multi layered. And, and, you know, that integral people in, in children's lives, you know, and I would love educators to, yeah, to get the respect and the value that they deserve. They love their profession as well. I'm wondering, Shane, do you

think that appreciation of teachers is linked to the ability to make change in schools and school communities? Yes, I think so. I think, I think schools have become disconnected from their communities in many ways, and it's not their fault, whether that be, for example, let me take the UK as an example, knowing the UK system with the inspector body in the UK, Ofsted, you know, and the way their judgments have been, you know, working these kind of big, you know, one word judgments that they've had this kind of high pressure, these big checklists that schools have to perform. Is it any wonder that schools are more disconnected to their community when they feel more beholden to the inspector, then their children and to their parents? Like what? Gosh,

that's the wrong way around it. So I feel like the more we try with best intentions, like I'm not saying that like organizations like Ofsted do not have really good intentions to make schools great places for children and to make sure education is top quality, but it is the wrong way around. And just it's a, it's a pipe dream that we can standardize our way into quality. I just have not seen it in social sciences, which education is, you might be able to standardize a robotic procedure or a manufacturing line or something like that, but standardizing a human interaction experience that constitutes many members of a community. I just feel like we keep trying to do the same thing over and over again. And I just,

it doesn't work. Like we need to bring it back to the community. I agree. I agree. That's just like a perfect end perhaps to a conversation. To finish it on,

we need to bring it back to community. And Shane, before we finish up, completely finish our conversation, is there anything else that you would want to say to our listeners? Yeah. What would be your last, your comments for our listeners today?

Well, I'm sorry. I don't, I have run out of profound things. I do want to say like for me, conversation is everything. Like this is where I feel like I live my best moments is in conversations like this, in conversations with schools. And I think there's not a lot

that can't be solved if not in a conversation. And so often if you're really struggling with something at the minute, just think, who can I speak to? Who haven't I spoke to? And maybe that's going to unlock your next step. So often if we're just in the room thinking ourselves,

or just trying to make a decision within a leadership team, it can be difficult. So yeah, for me, conversation is everything I would. Yeah. I love that. And listening to you

and, you know, thinking about conversation very much in a co-created way. Yes. Let's open our doors. Let's speak to each other.

Yeah. You know, because, because schools can have a tendency to be a little siloed like that, right? Everybody's in their classrooms and all this sort of thing. So yes, let's reach out to each other. Let's be there for each other and support each other. Absolutely.

Well, thank you so much, Jay. It's been, I've just like, just can't wait to read your book. And there's so much that I can take from this conversation that, that I want to take into, yeah, conversations that I'm having with schools, conversations that I'm having with children and young people. And yeah, really inspiring. And I'm looking forward to listening

to more of your podcasts as well. So thank you for coming and speaking to us. Thank you, Shane. And I'm just going to, for our listeners, I'm going to repeat the title of your book. And, and when, when does it come out, Shane?

Do you know, we've, we've written it last summer, but it's, we've got a wonderful publisher, Rowledge. It's going to be out in this summer. It's coming out this summer, 2025. It will be out and it's being printed internationally. So it'll be available.

I think it's, in fact, it's already available for pre-order on like Anson, Noble and Waterstones and all the Amazon, that kind of place. Wonderful. So the title is Change Starts Here. What if everything your school needed was right in front of you? Really, really looking forward to that. And Shane, it's been

an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today. A real joy to chat with you. Honestly, such an honor to join you both. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Brilliant. And thanks for listening, everybody. Take care.