Leading With Conviction | A Conversation with Katharine Birbalsingh

If you don't love your work, then you should probably do something else. If you're not excited about your job as a teacher or as a leader in a school, then why on earth are you doing it? Hey, everyone. I'm Shane Leaning. Welcome to Education Leaders,

the chat-topping leadership podcast for school leaders just like you. As an organizational coach, I've helped the houses of leaders worldwide lead with greater confidence, make better decisions, and create winning teams. On this show, we explore some of the strategies that are going to help you achieve your goals and transform your leadership. This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association.

Stay tuned to learn more. Now, my guest today needs little introduction. Catherine Burblesing is arguably Britain's most famous, and certainly some would say most controversial head teacher. She is the founder and head of the Michaela Community School in London, which has achieved some of the highest progress scores in England for three consecutive years.

Her schools, GCSE results in particular, are really extraordinary. With 52% of students achieving the top grade, nearly matching that of some of Britain's most elite private schools, despite serving students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Now, Catherine has gained international attention when she publicly criticized Britain's education system, declaring it broken. And that bold stance led to something extraordinary, the creation of Michaela, which has been dubbed Britain's strictest school and has fundamentally challenged a lot of conventional thinking about what's possible in education.

Now, Catherine's methods have attracted visitors from around the world with hundreds of educators visiting her school to understand how she achieves the results. But perhaps most importantly for our conversation today, she's proven that with absolute clarity of vision, relentless simplicity, and unwavering commitment to high expectations, schools can do remarkable things. This conversation really challenged me to think differently about leadership and the role of school culture and what it means to have courage as a leader. So let's jump right in.

The system at the moment in England is such that we are allowed autonomy. So it's then up to you to build the culture that you want around the rules that you sort of want, which, I mean, obviously, this is all within reason. You can't just suddenly decide to only teach music and English and that's it. There are certain basics that you need to abide by.

And what I think is really important about that is that when you have that autonomy, you really own what you're doing in the building. And it's not just me that owns it, the senior team owns it. I'd say every teacher here owns it because it's ours. The problem with diktak coming down from government is that you then get turned into a bit of a burger flipper at McDonald's.

When you flip burgers at McDonald's, you don't really care about the quality of the flip burger because, well, you're just doing a job. Whereas when you own it and you believe in it, because it's yours, it's a very different thing. And that's one of the things that I've been trying to explain to government more recently, because people who are politicians perhaps just don't understand that. If you haven't built anything, if you haven't owned anything, if you haven't run anything, then you don't know how important buy-in is from your staff for the institution to succeed.

That makes so much sense. It just reminds me that schools are full of human beings, and it's human beings who are the teachers and leaders at the school. And you need to be invested in what you're doing, or at the very least, you need to understand the why, the why and what you're doing before you'll do it. I wonder where would you start then?

I'm intrigued as to where you started in building that, you said hours, a sense of this is ours. Where on earth do you begin? Because I think that a lot of leaders, they're struggling with how to create that. Well, I think you as a leader need to be really clear on what your vision is.

And I think lots of people aren't. I think lots of people go around thinking, I need to please offstead or whatever the inspector it is that you're scared of, or the Department for Education, or your trustee board or whoever, that you're not doing it because you believe in it. You're trying to deliver something that someone else believes in. Now, that's just poison.

That's a disaster, right? It has to be yours. And you have to know what your vision is, and then you need to know what are the signs that your vision is succeeding, and what are the signs that show you that it's failing. And then, obviously, you need to be able to act on the things where it's failing.

So for instance, we don't have a very nice building. It's seven floors, as opposed to two floors, which is what a school would normally be. It's an old office block. It's right next to the trains.

We literally have rat traps in the yard to catch the rats that come over from the train tracks. You know, we have no grass, trees, no fields. We don't have a sports hall. There's no car park for the staff.

But I don't think that's what makes a school. It's the people inside the building that make the school. And the blood pumps through the people, right? I always say that our lunchtime, for instance, is the beating heart of the school.

I literally think of the whole thing as a human being, if you see what I mean. And all of us are connected. And we're all pumping that blood. And the lunch is the beating heart.

And you're going boom, boom, boom. And different people are hitting it at different times. But we're like a machine in that way. You're like one person together, you know, doing something together.

And so I think too often leaders think of, you know, there's disparate people. There's different groups. There are competing factions. And we're just sort of managing it, you know.

And you've got all these moving parts. And you're trying to control them. You're keeping your hands on top of the lid that's slightly boiling. And you don't want it to boil over.

And then you push it back down. And then you're boiling up and so on. That's the wrong way to think about it. It really needs to be seen as we're all connecting.

And then boom. And you're all feeding off each other. And it's just that sparks another spark here. And you're all connecting.

And you're all working together, right? That is how it needs to be in your mind. So then when you understand that, you understand how important communication is. And how important over communication is.

And how you need to say things a million and one times. You say it at briefing. You say it at CPD. You say it in an email.

You say it to your middle leaders. You say it to your senior leaders. And everybody else is repeating it. You also realize how important it is for things not to be too complex.

So I think schools are often far too complicated. You need, I'd say, fewer subjects, fewer options for the kids. There's too much choice. You know, so in my day, there were four channels on TV.

And you could just choose between those four channels. And then there came channel five. And then you had the five channels. You know, nowadays, you go on Netflix.

And I actually got rid of it. I got rid of Netflix. Because there was so much choice. I just thought, I can't actually watch anything.

I don't know what to do. There's too much, right? I feel this the same way in schools. If you just got too much, then you end up doing nothing.

People aren't able to invest in stuff that's chaotic and when there's lots there. So our school is very pared down. Now, obviously, people accuse us and criticize us for this. But I think it's one of the reasons for our massive success.

It's because we don't have that much to concentrate on. And it's really hard to do an excellent job in a school. And it's impossible, I'd say, to do an excellent job when you've got millions of different subjects, millions of different options in the canteen. You know, you go to eat lunch, and there's a potato bar and salad bar and pizza bar and sandwich bar.

I mean, we just have one food. We all do family lunch. So we go and we sit down, all the kids, one kid has a role to go up and get the big pot of food, bring it to the table with seven of you, and you all eat the same thing. Now, some people think, oh my goodness, that's so oppressive for children.

I think it's liberating. Because it means they don't have to think, oh my goodness, well, what am I eating today? And when it comes to your special needs kids, your disadvantaged kids, and so on, actually, the more you bring that fence in, the more they are supported, and the more likely they are to succeed, which means there are fewer incidents, there are fewer issues with kids not learning in lessons, and it means your teachers can then just concentrate on the planning of their lessons and the delivery of their lessons. So simplicity is really important.

And then I would say that there needs to be one person at the top who is influencing everything. So if you were to ask me about any member of staff of mine, I could tell you what their targets are. I could tell you what they're really good at, what they're struggling with. I could tell you what their department is doing.

I could tell you that about my caretakers. I could tell you that about my kitchen staff. I could tell you everything there is to know about the school because it's all in my head. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of big schools.

You want to have a small school, and if you do have a big school, then I think you need to divide it up in certain ways and then have a sort of mini head for the different sections. You have 2,000 kits, well, divide it into three parts. And then, you know, maybe you have, you have seven and eight, nine and 10, whatever it is, I don't know. Or maybe you have a lower school than an upper school.

Maybe you have, I don't know how it's divided, but you need to make it smaller because one person at the top needs to have everything in their head and needs to set the tone and lead inspirationally so that people buy into what you're doing. You need people to buy in. And then you need everybody to be singing from the same hymn sheet. So you started off by saying that, singing from the same hymn sheet.

How do you get that? Well, I speak to my staff all the time. So my whole day is just filled with speaking to staff. I meet with my heads of department once a week individually, and I also meet with all of my heads of department once a week together.

It's the same for my heads of year, individually and altogether, once a week. I meet with my senior team every day, every morning we meet, and we have conversations. A lot of the meetings that I have, I never have agendas for meeting. I've never had an agenda ever.

Really? Not one. Not one. Now, I'll have lists that I'm following myself that I'm thinking I need to remember this stuff, so it's not that I remember everything.

I'll write lists down and think I need tick, tick, tick. Well, I've gone through that, but I'm certainly never printing out agendas and handing them out to people. And a lot of the meetings that I have, we're just having chats about anything. This morning at my senior team meeting, we were talking about Hamilton, the musical, for quite some time.

And you might think, why on earth are we talking about Hamilton? I mean, it would take me too long to explain. But I mean, it does have everything to do with our ethos, by the way. So we weren't going off on a tangent.

So I'm not suggesting talk about your dog because you like your dog. I'm saying the things that we talk about all come back to ground zero. Because it's in my head, you see. So I'm drawing, it's one person at the top, leading everybody in a particular direction.

And Hamilton, for various reasons, this morning was relevant to the ethos of the school. And you get people thinking. You need people to be thinking beings. So I think we as human beings naturally can be a bit lazy intellectually.

You know, we sort of think, oh, I'm too tired. I can't be bothered to think about that. You know, anybody wants to talk to me about Ukraine. I think, oh my goodness, I'm too tired.

I don't want to talk about that. You and, you know, I don't talk about Ukraine because I don't know anything about Ukraine. So I understand people. I get it.

I'm the same. We're all human. We do get tired and think, I don't want to think about that. But the problem is, if we don't want to think about school, then that's a problem because that's our thing.

So I tend to think about school and kids and education all of the time, which is why I don't really know much about Ukraine because I don't give enough thought to that. All of my brain power is going into school. You know, and this is what I try and explain to people at that point because it's not that I'm some kind of genius or anything. It's just that I don't really think about anything else.

And that would be a big piece of advice I'd give people, actually. I just don't think they think about their jobs enough. People have this idea of work-life balance. I don't really understand that.

And I'm going to sort of say I never have time off. Of course I do. But I won't ever stop thinking about school. So I have, you won't see it here, but I've got right in front of me a cardboard cutout of Maximus from Gladiator.

Russell Crope. He's there with his sword and his whole metal outfit. And now my staff gave him to me because I'm always quoting things from Gladiator. Now, as an example, if I watch Gladiator, of course I'm just enjoying it.

I'm watching a movie and it's nice. Any movie I watch, this will be the case. I'm watching it. And then when Maximus gathers all his generals together and says, hold the line, stay with me, what we do in life echoes in eternity, I think brilliant leadership.

Because I can't help myself. Of course I'm thinking about leadership and schools and so on but Catherine, what about your work-life balance? And I think, oh, I don't even know how to stop thinking like that. How do I just turn it off?

I can't turn it off. I am who I am. And the thing is, I live and breathe this stuff. So the more as a leader you live and breathe your job, the better you'll be at it.

I mean, I always say to the kids, listen, you do lots of maths, you get good at maths. The reason why I'm not great at basketball because they play basketball in the yard. Well, the reason why I can't play basketball is you never see me throw a basketball, so obviously I'm not going to be very good at it. So we get good at what we think about and we get good at what we do.

If you think to yourself, well, I'm in the building from seven till six and therefore I only do it then, well, you can do that but you'll never be very good at your job. There's something that speaks to me quite powerfully. A couple of years ago, I was signed off work for a month with stress but the way I kind of felt like I healed myself with which a lot of people found me odd for was I was leaning into a lot of education research. I was reading a lot.

I was doing my podcast and people said, Shane, you need to stop that and just do something different. And I was like, but this is me. Like, this is my heart. So why would I?

Exactly. People give you bad advice all the time. Don't listen to people. Actors, when they say that, they're just thinking, but this is work.

But if you love your work, then it's not work. And then I think, well, if you don't love your work, then you should probably do something else. I mean, I don't really understand. Look, I understand maybe there are people, you know, when you work in a factory, obviously you're not going in thinking, oh, there's another toothbrush that I get to throw into that box.

I mean, I'm really excited about it. Clearly there are jobs which you're not going to be that excited about. But my goodness, if you're not excited about your job as a teacher or as a leader in a school, then why on earth are you doing it? Because God knows it doesn't pay very much.

God knows that it's really hard work. So honestly, if you don't love it, then get out now. But if you do love it, then don't listen to these people who talk about work-life balance. Just enjoy it and immerse yourself in education and get better and better at it because it's so much fun.

This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association. Now, I've been working with the ICA for quite a few years, but they've been around for 30 years and they've been around championing quality, unlocking potential, and improving learning in international schools right around the world. I really, really love that at their core, is the model for improving learning. And this model is focused on the learning experience and they have tons of great curriculum materials, PD resources, and even an accreditation pathway for schools just like yours.

So if you're interested, and I really do recommend you check them out, head over to internationalcurriculum.com. Katherine, I've written down the five things like this lovely checklist. So clarity of vision, simplicity, and knowing your team, knowing what's happening, constantly speaking to staff, and needing people and yourself to think, thinking about things.

These are really powerful advice. I wonder, do you do this right at the start? Because what you've just described is like leading a team. Do you also have to have a lot of say in the hiring of your staff?

Does this kind of mission go right back to the very start of when you're communicating with students on entry or parents when they're coming into your school or staff on entry? Is there a lot of setting up you have to do to make this work in the first place? Yes, so I'm just very clear about what we are, to everybody. So it's interesting you say that about kids and parents and teachers because you're absolutely right.

I speak to everyone in a very similar way. This is who we are. And I tell them the things, I always tell them the things that I think they won't like. So a member of staff, you know, if candidates come, we only ever interview a candidate, one candidate on any one day.

We wouldn't have six candidates in on one day, for instance. That would never happen. It's one candidate who comes on any one day because I want to get to know them. And then I want to then say, okay, given what we've talked about, what I've seen, my guess is that you're the kind of person who blah, blah, blah.

And I'm not sure you'll necessarily like this about Michaela because I've seen this and then they can just tell me what they actually think. You know, because I don't want them to come to the school that they're not going to be happy. Because that's a disaster. So, yeah, I'm just very straight with them.

And sometimes people say, you know what, I'm not sure this is the right school for me. And I say, brilliant. So win-win. Exactly.

So there's a different show to different folks. We're really different as a school. I get it. We're not necessarily right for everyone.

So you need people who have potential to buy in. You know, not everybody comes here going, oh my goodness. Yes, this is for me. But they have to at least be thinking, oh, I'm really open to these ideas.

That's fascinating. But if they come and think, oh my goodness, absolutely not. And people might think, oh, then they would obviously not take the job. You would be amazed at the number of people in the world who end up doing things they don't want to do.

As a leader, you have to help people figure out, is this really what you want to do or not what you want to do? Which is why I'll say, oh, I'm thinking maybe you won't like it for these reasons and so on. And then they can tell me. And they might say, yeah, you know, you're right.

Actually, this isn't what I would like. Or they say, oh, no, I've given the wrong impression. That's not true. You know, what happens then?

They're in the school. You've got this community and this must happen all the time, right? You must get resistance to certain things that are going to start coming through. Like what happens when you get resistance in this kind of community school?

Well, we persuade them. The reason I ask this getter is because I've heard you speak as well before about your school isn't what it is today that it was when you launched and you've iterated a lot. I'm interested at where that iteration has come from. Like, is it being because you've realised things as leaders or does resistance sometimes really lead to change?

Or I'm intrigued how this works. When you say resistance, it may sound like resistance. I'm always asking staff to tell me where things are going wrong. What is it?

So, I mean, the school is only what it is. Thanks to staff over the years, many staff saying we need to change this. We need to change that. So, I'm not suggesting that I'm the genius and I know everything and they just need to do what I say.

Absolutely not quite the opposite. That's why I have conversations all the time with staff. Because they're learning from me but I'm also learning from them a million times over. I mean, the school does not just belong to me.

It belongs to all of us, like I said at the beginning. But I just thought you meant when you were saying resistance, you see, that made it sound more like you're resisting the kind of core values of the school. And that obviously is something that we're not changing. And when I say about persuading them, I mean that because I think people can often misunderstand.

They don't really know. And then I said, well, you know, did you realize da-da-da-da-da? And then they go, oh, I see. No, I hadn't understood.

But that requires conversations, you see. Honestly, it's amazing what a conversation will do. And I think people just don't have enough conversations. I mean, that is the bottom line.

I just don't think people talk enough in schools. Everybody's running around and they've got a million things to do. So, I get it, you know, they've got the photocopying and then the class is kicking off and the, you know, wherever and they have to get there. And the head has a million things to do.

I mean, I do get it. But that's where I really want to reduce the amount that I'm doing. So, I can chat to my staff. Talking to my staff is just so, so important.

And that comes full circle to what you were saying earlier about. Simplify what you're doing as a school. And of course, yours was a new school setup. But like, you know, there's some schools that have been around that have accumulated and accumulated.

And how can you think? You know, you say about learning from other people. Once one of my teachers said to me, really clever. She said, it's as if in schools there's an ice cream cone.

And then somebody says, why don't you take a few sprinkles? Say, oh yeah, that's nice. Oh, how about you have some extra chocolate on the top and then, oh, let's put some, some chocolate chips on there. And let's put, and she said, and the thing is, is that because people aren't really thinking about what it's going to look like in the end, they keep saying yes to every bit that's being added on.

And the ice cream keeps getting bigger and bigger on that cone. And then eventually, the ice cream just topples off because it's too heavy. That is very much what I think happens in schools all of the time. It happens in departments.

You know, it's not just the whole school. You could think about it, your own department, you know, your head of department and you just keep going, yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, that's a good idea.

You need to say no. If you never say no, the ice cream will grow to a point where you just can't handle it and it will fall off. Yeah. My wife would agree entirely with that.

I'm a hoarder. So like that, I just do that with my life, Catherine. Like I just accumulate and accumulate and she says, just, you know, let go, Shane. Otherwise you can't think in this house with all this stuff.

Yes. We've talked about buying and you've said that the teachers in your school believe in the bigger mission. They believe in the mission of the school. How do you know the difference between them saying that they're believing in the bigger mission?

And how do you know the difference between that and just compliance because you're the boss telling them what to do? Yes. Well, there's very high trust here. Huge amounts of trust between me and the teachers and huge amounts of connection.

So when I say connection, I mean, that comes from the conversations. You know, you're sharing together and trusting each other and welcoming when they push back. So really celebrating it when they do and listening to them because then others think, oh, well, she listens to what I say when I push back. We can push back.

And so then they just do. So, you know, now, not all of my staff will. I mean, some of them, it's just not in them. You know, they're just too awkward to do that.

But I have enough staff who will definitely push back and they'll say, Catherine, I don't know if you realize that. You know, and I will actually say to people, just remember next time we're in this situation, you need to say Catherine. And then when I say no, no, no, you need to say, no, Catherine, listen to what I'm saying. And when I go, no, no, no, you need to go, Catherine, are you on the hit right now?

Listen to what I'm saying. And so I will even prep people in that way to push back. So there very much is a culture of people pushing back on me all the time. It sounds like it's about building, like Amy Edmondson says about a culture of psychological safety.

Like, so you're doing it before. You're saying, what will happen when we fail or what will happen if these things happen? And let's talk about it. Let's know that we're going to talk about it before it happens.

And then it'll be a little bit better when it does. Yes, and I make people feel that I will be grateful for them doing that, that I will want that from them. And I also will say to them, listen, I cannot run the school if you don't tell me what's going on. I will make stupid decisions and we will all blow up.

I'm depending on you. And I'm depending on your honesty and your, you know, your trust in me that you can tell me these things. Absolutely. You know, the word that's just kept coming up in our conversation, Catherine, is conversations.

That's the secret sauce, isn't it? It's conversations, talking as much as possible. And the conversations require time. So it's about making time for those conversations.

And the only way you do that is to simplify, get really clear on what you're doing and do that. Exactly. Can we kind of finish up then by talking? We've talked a lot about staff, but I'd love to understand how you build in that parent support as well.

Because often when I'm working with schools, Catherine, they say it's like school wants to do this. Parents are over there. Oh, that's just like this constant like battle between school and parents. Do you feel that battle for a star and what are your thoughts around this?

Yes, but I don't make a huge effort to get parents on board. I tell them this is the way that it is. Now, obviously, we have relationships with the parents and so on, but I'm very clear. We are the educators.

We are making decisions about what's happening. Don't tell me how to run the school. I actually say to them, look, the day I send my child to your school, I'll do what you say, but you send your child to mine. You need to do what I say.

And if you don't like that, then don't send your child to my school. It's very simple. Now, parents don't necessarily take that seriously. They sort of think, well, I'm just saying any old nonsense.

But then because I've laid out my stall at the beginning, when it then comes to them going, well, I don't like the way you do blah, blah. I then say, do you remember how I said well, I was being serious. And then they don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Now, look, I recognize that maybe some of your heads won't necessarily be in the position of having.

So when you're in the inner city in London and you're given your intake by the local council and there are tons of kids around, there's tons of kids. They come to your school. Their parents are not necessarily so motivated to say, right, we're going elsewhere. They just kind of go, oh, okay, then.

And then they just kind of do what you were saying. You know, that is what happens. I recognize that sort of wealthier parents who might have the choice between two different international schools might not be like that. But what I would say to your heads listening is I don't think they should be frightened.

So there are lots of head teachers in my position in similar schools to mine who feel very much they need to pander to parents. I don't think you should underestimate how much people, parents value strength in leadership and how much they admire it. And while on the one hand you imagine, yeah, but then that means they won't want to come to my school. The fact that you seem unreasonable is almost attractive.

You know, you've got to compare this to dating, the world of dating. So, you know, you've got the woman who is very much I don't have time for you. This is who I am. And then you've got the woman who's ringing you every five minutes.

Oh, you know, I really like you, et cetera, et cetera. The guy doesn't tend to like the woman who's ringing him every five seconds. Same the other way around. I've done it this way.

It could be the other way around. You know, the man is ringing the woman, whichever way. The point is the person who is a bit more hard to get the person who is saying these are my standards. You need to meet my standards.

You don't meet my standards. I'm not happy. The guy or the girl is going, yes, where can I take you to dinner? Can I take you out in a nice car?

What can I do? What can I do? Whereas the one who's constantly calling and so on. Well, she doesn't want anything to do with him, does she?

She thinks he's a bit of a pain or he thinks she's a bit meaty and a bit clingy. So it's sort of the same with parents. If you're going to parents going, what can I do to please you? They then walk all over you.

If on the other hand you say, no, these are my standards. You better meet my standards. Then suddenly they're working hard to meet your standards. Obviously, it's much more complex than that and I've simplified it.

As a general rule, I think it's the same with the teacher standing in front of a class. It is sort of like the world of dating. If you're desperate with the kids, please like me, please like me, then the kids don't have any respect for you. If you say, God, dance to my children.

I'm in charge here. Suddenly the kids are going, Sir, I've done my homework. Is it good enough? Is it good enough?

It's exactly the same. You know, like in Grease, you know, Grease, the film, John Travolta and John Travolta, Olivia and John is there and she looks to her friends with her pink lady jacket and she says, Oh, what should I do? What should I do? And she drops her cigarette and she stumps out the cigarette and then she pushes John Travolta back with her foot.

And then she goes up to him and goes, and then he goes, Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. It's Sandy. I'm Sandy and I leave the jacket.

I can't believe it. And then she turns around and she walks away and he comes running after her because she's saying, these are my standards. Get lost. And then she turns around and she says, I still like you.

And he goes, and then he runs after her again. That is what you need to do with a class. It's what you need to do with the parents. It's what you need to do with everyone.

Wow. This conversation with Catherine has really stayed with me. There's something really powerful about a leader who knows exactly what they stand for and isn't afraid to say it. And whether you agree with her methods or not, there are some undeniable leadership lessons here.

The clarity of vision piece really struck with me. How many of us as leaders can honestly say that we could explain our school's approach to any parent, any teacher, any student with the same conviction. And that point about simplicity, the ice cream cone analogy, I think we've all been guilty of adding sprinkles until everything topples over. Now, I know Catherine's approach won't work in every context and I'm sure many of you are going to have strong reactions to some of what's being shared.

But that's the point of these conversations, to really challenge our thinking, to see leadership through different lenses and to take what serves us and leave what doesn't. If there's one thing I'm taking away, it's this. As leaders, we need to be braver. Braver about defining what we stand for.

Braver to simplify what we do and brave enough to have real conversations with all the people we serve. Education Leaders is hosted by me, Shane Leaning, huge thanks to the show editor, Pete McGill, and for the original music by Guillaume Silva. And thank you so, so much for tuning in today. If we don't speak before as ever, I'll see you here next week.

If you want to learn more about the brilliant work from the International Curriculum Association, head to internationalcurriculum.com.