The Power of Storytelling

Shane Leaning: Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. All a Dempsey. How are you? It's really good to have you with us.

Orla Dempsey: Oh, thank you very much for having me on. I'm doing really well. It's a lovely sunny day here at Jim in Ireland. Listening to your talk about whether they're over in the States made me for once feel glad that I'm Irish. It might be raining in an hour's time, but at the moment it's a lovely sunny day.

Shane Leaning: You ⁓ that's gorgeous. You need to get outside in that, you know, make make the most of it. That's awesome. Well, it's really good if you're joining us live on LinkedIn. Welcome. This is Coaching Done Well. I'm Shane Leaning. I'm based here in Shanghai. My good friend Jim Thompson is over in Rochester, New York. It's first thing in the morning for him, last thing in the evening me. And Ola, why don't you tell us we know you're in Ireland, so you're about halfway between us. But give us a bit of a flavor of What keeps you busy in the day?

Orla Dempsey: So later today, for example, I am coaching a couple of clients and I'm preparing them for interviews. So we're at the start of recruitment season here in Ireland ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ be quite a nerve wracking experience for teachers and leaders who are very dedicated to the role. But when it comes to this stage, they lack the in themselves to be able to communicate their wonderful leadership skills. So I have a couple of clients today. I'm also doing some research into teachers' experiences of their school leaders. that's been a very interesting experience of seeing what the research is saying and how my own survey gathered data around what Irish teachers are experiencing in their school leaders. And ⁓ doing lot of mentoring and meeting with teachers individually, one-on-one. ⁓ In the past I've been a primary school teacher. I took a career break in 2014 after about seven or eight years teaching in the classroom. So that's been lovely. People often ask me do I miss schools? I say I very much miss the children but I'm lucky enough to be meeting with teachers on a regular basis. So that's enough for me for the moment. I think I'm the best of both worlds.

Shane Leaning: Well, what an absolute honor to have you on the show, Ola. And for listeners, Ola is just one of the best coaches out there, really helping people with interview skills. And I know firsthand, because I had the good fortune of being coached on Air 1s ⁓ Ola and wow, really, really powerful stuff. And not only that, but I know you advocate so well for the experience of teachers in schools through some of the work you've done, some of the local research you've done. And I just think... what you do is super wonderful. what an absolute honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us,

Orla Dempsey: Thank you very much. I feel very lucky to have been on both of your podcasts now. And yeah, long way to continue. think I, and the way we connected was I have my own podcast called the Growth in Educational Leadership ⁓ podcast, because I saw a need out there to take what I do one-to-one with my clients and bring it to another level because it's

Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha ha.

Orla Dempsey: you know, especially when you're preparing for interviews or I know that there's a lot of, for example, one of the challenges is around, you know, the fear of talking about your ambition out loud in the education sector, a fear of rejection. And the podcast helps us to see, right, I take people from a variety of different backgrounds, world's business to school principals. And we talk about things that we don't talk about in our classrooms and in our staff rooms. about long it takes and how much effort it takes sometimes ⁓ get to that level you want to. ⁓ yeah, it was a good day when I Googled the names for my podcast and saw there was one similar.

Shane Leaning: ⁓ chuffed a bit. Jim, why don't you kick us off? What's on your mind as we jump into this conversation?

Jim Thompson: Well, we're just so delighted to have you, Orla. I want to jump right in the pool, right? Jump right into your wheelhouse here. You know, in my work with video, when we ask people to video their practice, they go, what? Are you kidding me? This is scary. I don't want to do something like that. So we worked with Harvard's best foot forward to use a selfie because we need to take the scary out of videoing your practice. Orla, can you help us a little bit? How do you help take the scary out of not just showing up for an interview, but more importantly, being able to showcase the best version of yourself? So I'll turn it over.

Orla Dempsey: How to showcase the best version of yourself. Most teachers come to me saying they're looking for confidence ⁓ dig below that. Where does the lack of confidence come from? How can we introduce a coaching style approach to their preparation? Because often they believe that jargon and words make them sound impressive and it's what they should say. ⁓ And the in me ⁓ holds them back and says, but I want to hear what's in your heart. know, they want to know what kind of a leader they're going to be hiring for that role. So we strip away some of that, a lot of that jargon style and that helps them realize actually, this is quite simple. This is more simple than I thought that it would be. ⁓ go from there ⁓ develop their confidence. I explain, and I would have worked with Shane around the use of verbs because When you're a trained coach, you're aware of the different coaching skills that are available to utilize or in your toolbox. Well, my tool are the verbs that you can use to articulate the different stages, the different steps of your leadership. ⁓ would be my ⁓ approach coaching people for interview preparation. And they're just verbs at the end of the day. You know, I give them a big long list of verbs. I encourage them to use it in their interview preparation. I send it. Automatically I say, please print these off. so often you have a teacher that believes that that's cheating. I said, no, it's not cheating. These are a tool for us to use. ⁓ they start to scan them through those list of verbs, they're like, wow, actually, it begins to dawn on them that I sound quite impressive here. so, ⁓ yeah, a few little ways that in a 90 minute session together, we can transform their interview skills and help them to showcase what they have to.

Jim Thompson: That's lovely. resonate so much with that. I an elementary principal for 20 years and ⁓ interview was such an important question. And everybody wanted to know what questions I was going to ask ahead of time, know, these interview questions. And I'd a couple questions when I, and I'll give you two or three examples. They said, they didn't tell me about that question. And one the first questions I asked was, well, what are you reading? another question I'd ask on a scale of one to 10, How enthusiastic are you? candidate says, ⁓ on Monday, probably about a 4.1. ⁓ was a short interview, by the way. And ⁓ question I asked that they said they weren't prepared for is, tell me about a time you didn't give up on a kid. they revealing. Or can give us examples of some questions asked in interviews that might throw the candidate? Or on the other hand, might give them an opportunity to showcase themselves and how do you prepare those responses for them?

Orla Dempsey: They're very clever questions that you asked. And ⁓ so I think that they're lovely. They will be very unexpected in Ireland. really would. There a set of competency based questions that teachers are expecting to follow. But also you get a lot from a candidate when you throw them a question you know, unexpected. So well done on that, I think. that's even that enthusiasm. did a leadership course a few years ago. And there was a school principal said to me, instead of asking the strengths question, I find teachers find that in Ireland quite tricky to answer. And I use kind of perceptual positioning. would say, what would your school principals say about you and choose a few adjectives? would your teaching best do? What would they say about you? What would a parent that knows you very well, what would they say about you? They find that an awful lot easier. to gather that bank of vocabulary and those bank of words that are authentic to them. the school principal that met on that course, she said that she asks, what's your teaching superpower? And she gets good results from that question. And I just thought that that was a very clever approach to ⁓ asking, and especially a newly qualified teacher, somebody who's quite recently that wouldn't really have a lot of experience behind them. And I can imagine this lovely vibrancy and image and colour to that kind of a question.

Jim Thompson: Let me get one more question and hear your response and turn it back to our interlocutor Shane who is kind of wrapped all this stuff up. When we had Jim Knight on the show, he recommended this wonderful new book by Kate Murphy. It's called Why We Click. you know, used to, way back when, when we had, I was principal, we had like several hundred applicants for a job. I know that's not the case anymore. So what I would do, I'd do screening interviews, like 20 minute, 10 minute and After in during that 10-15 minutes, either clicked or didn't click. I know that's not very professional to all you people, the scholars out there, but ⁓ either click or didn't on that. What are the secret sauce ingredients for clicking with the interviewer?

Orla Dempsey: a great question. I was sitting on an interview panel recently and I noticed a very high caliber candidate come into the role or into the interview itself. as questions went on, I noticed that we were so curious in what this lady had to say ⁓ that conversation became more ⁓ than interview So there some element of clicking. She was capable. ⁓ confident, she was knowledgeable who presented that whole holistic view ⁓ of her. could see and also something that I learned as an external interview panelist. I was at a training yesterday on hiring new staff members. It's trickier for me as an external. So what I do in that role is I reduce bias, I ensure that there's fairness and consistency. because I don't know who's likely to waffle or I don't know, you know, I'm coming in and meeting them for the first time ever. But actually, that whole fit from an organisational perspective is very important too. thinking, so whoever the principal, like yourself ⁓ that role, they're thinking, how is this person going to fit in with my existing staff members? How are they going to fit in within departments, etc? And I thought that that was very clever. I can't, I don't have that view as an external on an interview panel. So there's both sides of that perspective and that ⁓ as you say, ⁓ can see, I may not even have, I can see how they click with us on the board, ⁓ but a conversation about that, how that person fits in ⁓ to school itself. ⁓

Jim Thompson: That's lovely. Shane, what's on your mind hearing all this good stuff?

Shane Leaning: Well, I'll tell you what, there are few things on my mind, but the big thing ⁓ my mind right now is an observation of something brilliant that you do when you are answering these questions, ⁓ it's a skill that I am desperate to learn. I just hear it in you because did you notice, Jim, every question you ask, Ola answered it with a story. Every one, you took a moment, you had a thought, and then you literally just launched in with... I had this time when or I had this moment when or a few weeks ago I was doing this. This hooked me instantly into that answer. And I guess I'm now curious, is this you actively teach? Is this just an all a trait or is this something you ⁓ people to do in their interviews?

Orla Dempsey: ⁓ that's such a lovely observation. Thank you for that. was unaware, completely unaware. I did speak to a lady yesterday for my own podcast. I'm to tell another story now. ⁓ And she is an expert in public speaking. She has actually created a series of books for she was in Toastmasters. She is in Toastmasters for many, many years. ⁓ And realized

Shane Leaning: Ha ha ha. I knew it! See?

Orla Dempsey: She said she was talking to children. had created a presentation on a laptop and were talking through it and what the mechanics were of how to put it together, etc. ⁓ And said, can you present that to me now? Can you talk? And there was a disconnect. The children believed that what was on the laptop, what was written on the screen was the presentation. ⁓ And realised that they were missing the communication skills. presentation skills necessary in order to connect the two. So she went to her Toastmasters repertoire and she says, I'm going to create a couple of lesson plans here for this. there is a huge interest in teaching those public speaking skills at a very young age. So that I notice when we spoke together ⁓ that she had a big repertoire of stories that, and I said it here at the end, towards the end I thought. exactly just as you've mentioned to me, you promote stories, you talk about storytelling, you talk about communication and that's how podcast episode flowed ⁓ that's why it was so enjoyable to me. She from story to story so I didn't realise I'd do the same but thank you for that observation.

Shane Leaning: Well, I think it's quite a skill. And so I guess it also just leaves me intrigued. that most of the people you've, I mean, you've listened to quite a few of our episodes as well. So you'll know most people who we talk to, we have a lot of teacher coaches, coaches who coach teachers on their teaching practice. And you offer something slightly different. You're coaching teachers or leaders into their interview practice, into helping them. present themselves. So I guess I'm wondering from your perspective, you've heard what other people would say makes a great coach. do you think good coaching looks like in your Like what does coaching done well look like for an interview coach?

Orla Dempsey: The first element for me is full body listening and giving somebody your full presence, giving them that eye contact. We're so busy in life right now and there's 101 things going on and my coaching situation, they're very nervous and being able to sit with them, tell them their nerves are natural, the nerves, it's, know, ⁓ to sit with them so that we have. quality time for those 90 minutes spent together. It's heart-centred. The coach is rooting for the coachee and we're working together to explore motivations, the desires, the values. I think that that's very important as well, to trust that the other person is guiding you, is with you on that journey. Confidentiality. is very important as well. So spending time contracting at the start explain what the session will look like, ⁓ different steps, giving them autonomy in it as well. So I would often check in with my client to make sure that they're getting what they need. There's worse than if they are halfway through an interview session or coaching session and say, we haven't touched on this one and I'm really afraid that I'm going to be asked about. ⁓ tricky situation with a colleague or whatever it is. So that can be playing on their mind, so giving them that opportunity to be able to get their fears out and have that openness and transparency. But that confidentiality piece is, I know in Ireland we talk about it being a small community and people know others and they need that sense of reassurance that everything that we share together is completely confidential and it's going to go no further. Even when it comes to Jim you'll you'll appreciate this, but the sessions are recorded because oftentimes I encourage them if great vocabulary comes up or I'm echoing or reframing back to the client things that are going to happen, I'd like them to have that record or they can choose to have that record if they wish to do so. But I say to them, if you never look at it, you never look at it. But at least it's a tool there to help them improve their interview prep in the future. So that's quite a nice thing to have. ⁓ even around the confidentiality and the GDPR around that, making sure that it goes, you know, that it's treated as a very, very important of data and documentation for them. Coaching well, I know personally working with my coach, challenging, OK, that the coach, my coach, we have such a wonderful relationship built up now, but I know that she knows where she can challenge me. And I appreciate that. It's kind of like there's a bottom line moment where I'm like, you're right. I know that that's the case. And what am I going to do with that? She's very much process driven and not results oriented. We don't work towards the traditional coaching session. What are we going to be getting at the end of this or what's going to be our output? But yeah, we've had such a wonderful relationship where she challenges me quite a lot. So there are just a few off the top of my head of what a coaching session looks like.

Shane Leaning: I really, really appreciate you sharing that. And I love that you kept linking it back to heart as well. Like a heart in coaching and it links to what you finished on about challenge as well, because ⁓ not like, it's not an unsafe challenge. It's a safe challenge where there's been a level of psychological safety between you. It's certainly how I felt the last few episodes where, you know, Jim coached me and then I coached Jim. And there was this level of challenge that I felt was really... important to both of our growth. So I really, I really value that. Thank you so much, Ola. And I'd love to just before I pass it back to you, Jim, again, just to bring in Jason, who's in the chat, he loved by the way, what you said, he's tuning in on LinkedIn. He loves what you said about verbs. He said awesome, Ola, verbs create sense and tense. They communicate past, present and future action. That's a lovely, lovely framing, Jason. if you're tuned in, I can see quite a few of you are tuned in. on LinkedIn, please do send us your message, say hi. We're live for a reason. It's so that you can be part of this conversation. So please do get involved. Jim, what's on your mind?

Jim Thompson: Just, know, the Reheath brothers wrote this great book, The Power of Moments. These are just wonderful moments with Orland. I know we got a little, got a couple questions to remind it up. You know, I'm a video coach, you know, teachers rarely have seen what they do, their own practice. And we believe that a ⁓ video, they at their own practice, it gives them clarity, it lets them know where they are right now. ⁓ I know you talked a little bit about recording. Could you say a little bit about to what extent, any, you, with rehearsing people, that you video them in mock interviews, you video yourself coaching and use that ⁓ ⁓ way to work on coaching goals? To what degree, if anything, right now do you use video with your coaching? And turn it over to you, Orla.

Orla Dempsey: ⁓ thank you. ⁓ are tool to help the clients prepare because when they come to me, it's a big investment in their career. ⁓ It's that I want to reduce any sense of resistance ⁓ for to be able to ⁓ learn grow going forward. ⁓ So would find that sometimes they feel they might not like it recorded, that they're just there for the moment. ⁓ And that's where I say, if you never use it, you never use it. But actually quite a considerable amount of them afterwards would say, I'm very glad that this has been recorded. I'm like, yeah, I know. It's often that way. ⁓ being able to echo back, I suppose, from a personal perspective. When I learn something about best practice in coaching, it's a wonderful opportunity for me. I know you talked about one of your last episodes of importance of feed forward and I would be using that quite often so giving that observations on how they performed and that feed forward going forward and improving things for the future. So anytime I pick up a little nugget like that I try and use it in my own coaching sessions for both myself and my own practice but also to give them something to work with. I have created online courses, so more on the imparting knowledge side of things, which helps people kind of pick up the and techniques that can be associated with ⁓ frameworks, etc. But room for, and thank you for asking that question, because there's room for development there in that I could probably use video more than what I'm currently using it for.

Jim Thompson: Thank you. I got one more question to wrap it up. I'm old, you know, I'm not a lot. I'm not a lot. But, you know, what's the if you went down on the Internet, what's one of the biggest searches is chat GPT AI? I mean, I'm looking this is mid 70s and I'm seeing there's promise and there's perils. And it's kind of like a Pandora's box a little bit. I don't want to. But would. What's going on with coaching? what degree is AI an important tool for you? also, do you fear about AI and how might be interwoven in this stuff called coaching?

Orla Dempsey: It's very interesting that question. I had my first ever client recently. He told me that she prepared for her mock interview with me AI and she it quite a positive ⁓ However, she still on the call with me and I was because ⁓ and I also think it's more it's a generational thing ⁓ is that straight. She's not quite straight out of teacher. I think she's in her first year of teaching. I was very curious to see that age group, that that is something that comes to mind very quickly. She got some useful feedback, but... you know, is such a personal experience and even where preparing for today is to do some ⁓ I'm like, I'm not going towards AI for any of these answers here. So you give me, well, I was encouraged to add some prompts about, know, what's challenging, what's coaching done well. To me, I know that, look, it would provide me with the technical side of things, ⁓ that self-practice and that self-reflection. You cannot beat that. And there is a huge risk there that it's going to take over our thinking because it sounds good and because it's going to give us the jargon and we can make the most of it ourselves. But there's a huge risk that it's going to take over more of our thinking. And yeah, I wonder what's the future if we don't encourage ourselves to use our critical thinking skills more often, because it's a very, very easy tool to. to use and to get into. But know when I've been working with different therapists and counselors as well, it's risky when we start looking for outsourcing for AI, how we're thinking and how we're feeling and how we're making sense of the world. It's quite a challenge.

Jim Thompson: Well, Smokey Robinson would say, I second that emotion. what's on your mind with this before we start winding up with this wonderful guest?

Shane Leaning: I am just having the best time in this conversation. Thank you so much, Ola, for sharing your knowledge. And this is one of those episodes where I just know I want to go listen back. And I want to listen back on two ways, really. You have shared a lot of really interesting insight, I think, on your process with coaching, which I find really fascinating. I want to go back and I want to listen about, again, about... you know, full body presence, for example. But I also want to go back and just listen again to how you answer questions, because I come back to this. Jason's also said in the chat, said, true story ⁓ authentic evidence for the interviewer to picture and believe in. I know that's something you believe in all in what you do. And you are a masterful storyteller. And I think we could all learn in the from in the idea of how we respond using a story, using an example, bringing something to life. I think that's super important. And I think it links all the way back to what you told us at the beginning about when people are in interview mode or coming to you for coaching, they feel nervous. And that can mean you can start reaching for facts or for figures. You think you have to be something you're not. And actually you've got these stories and like, if you can kind of almost reduce ⁓ What do you like reduce that filter a little bit that effective filter or whatever it is and then be able to just bring your stories to life. What a gift. If people were having interviews and speaking in the way you do my God, we'd have some great articulate interviews out there in the world.

Orla Dempsey: Thank you very much. it's a... ⁓ a good approach. It's something that think it's a coping technique for me sometimes, ⁓ that, okay, if I have a reference point that I can share. And also believe that part of job application process, I see so many academic sounding job application forms ⁓ and it against them. It goes against what we've been trained in education. We want to sound our best. want to prove ourselves and That doesn't work in interviews. And we really want to get to that heart-centered approach. We want to have that one-to-one connection. for me, it's a little bit about dispelling the myths of we have to be something that comes from a textbook, because who an employer is employing is the person themselves. So, yeah, I feel like I have a few simple techniques to reduce all of that. And they can see the little lightbulb moments and say, oh, I can be impressive and be more simple about this, you know. So, yeah. It's a pleasure to do what I do.

Shane Leaning: I like that. And this is, know, in the end, you, you, finished up with Jim's question on AI there as well. And in the end, these are these human things, this storytelling or this heart, as you put it, that are things that are deeply human. And that's what people want to hear now. Like we don't just do, you know, we go to chat GBT for our research and our advice and the kind of the facts, but we're wanting to hear the heart and the human behind it. And I'm really glad to hear there's people like you kind of doing that work, supporting people. to be fully present in their humanity in their interviews. That's really cracking on. I wonder like, where would people find you online and what you do so they can kind of get in touch and see some of your good work.

Orla Dempsey: Thank you. May I ask a question before I answer that?

Shane Leaning: I don't know, what do you think Jim?

Jim Thompson: I'm sweating, I'm sweating a lot.

Orla Dempsey: okay, you're okay. Shane is in the spotlight here. ⁓

Shane Leaning: Go for it, go for it. Yeah, I think I feel safe enough right now.

Orla Dempsey: wonder, you are making connections in your head observing how I'm behaving and answering questions. Is that something that goes on consciously in ⁓ brain as a result of the culture or do you think your curious nature came before this?

Shane Leaning: That is a very good question. ⁓ well done you as always a coach who tries to flip it back on you. That's I think, know, do you know, I didn't used to be a very good listener at all. And I'm still just kind of kind of getting better. And there's been a few things that have helped me I think being around other people who are very good listeners helps. Don't you think like I So I know my wife Emma is just the most insanely brilliant listener, for example. And so just the more time I spend around her and watch what she's doing with other people, the more I can kind of lean in into that approach. And that's definitely made me better. But also, I think that when you are a coach as well, you have to start reflecting on yourself. And I think the more I get to do things like podcasts, the more I record myself, the more you kind of see yourself in action, the more you can reflect on what did I do there? Was I really present there? Was I listening or was I planning my next move? I think with time, if you keep reflecting, and certainly for me, you're able to start listening in a better way where you're not just able to listen to what they're saying, but hopefully kind of, you know, do that full body listening almost like what you say to kind of notice what's happening in the room. ⁓ my goodness. There's a good book on this about the two levels of listening. I left my mind about listening, listening presently to what they're saying, but then listening to the full room and the full, full, the full place. And it's, it's nice when you can get to that point. But I think to answer your question, I feel like I can only be in that point if I feel that my absolute safest and calmest as well. Like if there's ever any slight tension in a room or pressure or something like that, then it's really hard to kind of listen ⁓ the person in front of you. Don't you find?

Orla Dempsey: about you Jim? Is that something that ⁓ notice as well? Is it just developing listening skills over time?

Jim Thompson: I think it goes down to authentically offering radical hospitality. And being in your mind and your heart. As I tell the interview teams before we start interviewing people, said, we can make this person real nervous. Real, real nervous. And I said, I bet you have been on some interviews where they really gave you the 19th nervous breakdown in last three minutes. It's kind of like, wait a while, I how they're going to react. That's not what we're about. Because if a teacher did that to children,

Orla Dempsey: you

Jim Thompson: you know, made them feel like that. We wouldn't have them on staff. I'm looking at, you know, what does it look like and sound like and feel like? They have a sense of hospitality They have a sense of belonging, the sense that we really want to know a lot about you and really mean that because, you know, Kate Murphy wrote an earlier book, ⁓ Listening to Me? And she asked a lot of people who listen to you and most people said nobody. I think that first thing in the hospitaita is really listening, really listening and offering an open heart and really kind of a moment of grace. of the ways we characterize coaching done well is giving the coachee a place to do their best thinking. like I think you said in Ireland, they don't have that time. It's like we're deflecting, we're not reflecting. We need to give students time. reflect and shouldn't we give the that person that that coach authentic not it's because it's on a script not because chat gbt says give them two give them 37 seconds to reflect and then start the question no that's that's not what we're about i think we need to have a little humanity and grace to that it's a long answer to a good question but we appreciate you having on board today you know this is this has been a delight um I'll tell you, Maya Angelou said, people forget what you say, people forget what you do, but they will never forget how you made them feel. ⁓ a child ⁓ rock in the 60s, there's a guy, rock star James Brown, and he said, ⁓ feel good. So after this interview, we feel good. We've got to have you on again next year. We don't offer any compensation. But if we do ever see you, we'd offer you a pint, you know, some place or I got a runner and a couple things, but I just wanted to say in a heartfelt way what a joy it's been to have you with us. And if I got to leave in a couple minutes, it's not because of you, because I got a car that I got to get back to. that's life. This is live TV, folks. Okay. You can send donations into Shane or Jim or Aura. We do no off...

Orla Dempsey: I love that. Thank very much.

Jim Thompson: Take Bitcoin. No longer take Bitcoin. Okay?

Orla Dempsey: I for that. Thank you.

Shane Leaning: That's awesome. All that well, what a treat. Thank you so much for joining us both today. It's been a really invigorating chat. I always say after these things, like it's late at night here and now I'm not going to be able to sleep because I'm going to be thinking of all these great ideas. And I'm really super grateful for that. So thank you for joining us. Thank you, Jim as well. What wonderful time sharing this space with you both. Thank you to those joining us online. Thank you, Jason, for your kind comments. Jason. leave you with this comment, of you have a wonderful warm way of being. That's why you're on the show. Thank you so much for being so warm and kind with your responses. All thank you everyone who's joining us, whether you're on LinkedIn live, whether you're here on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, it has been a joy to have you. We have got a lot of other great episodes coming up, so stay tuned. But for now, thank you so much and have an amazing day wherever you are.

Jim Thompson: Thank you so much. Thank you, Orla. Thank you, Shane.

Orla Dempsey: Thank you. Bye bye.

Shane Leaning: Thank you so much.