How to Lead Without Being Needed | A Conversation with Brett Griffin

What if the very thing that makes school run smoothly are actually stopping leaders from doing their best work? Today we're going to unpack why structure can be both a blessing and a curse and what happens when you take it away completely. Hey everyone, I'm Shane Leaning. Welcome to Education Leaders, the chart-topping leadership podcast for school leaders just like you.

As an organizational coach, I've helped thousands of leaders worldwide lead with greater confidence, make better decisions and create winning teams. And on this show, we explore the strategies that are going to help you achieve your goals and transform your leadership. This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association and the Teacher Development Trust, so stay tuned to learn more. My guest today is Brett Griffin.

He's been a teacher, assistant principal, but then he did something quite unusual. He left education to become CEO of Pupil Progress, which is a tech company that's now used by over 700 schools across the world. And what Brett learned about leadership by moving from the structured world of schools into the, well, let's face it, chaos of startup life. I think it's going to help you rethink how you're running your team.

Let's jump in. It's been a really fascinating journey. If someone has said to me, Brett, in 10 years' time, you're going to be the founder of a tech company. I'd have laughed at them.

And, you know, when we started this conversation, I find leadership particularly fascinating. You know, I shared with you that I did my master's in leadership in my school journey. I was really passionate about becoming a head teacher, potentially becoming an executive head. I was really looking to drive a career as a as a trust leader, and I did my master's to do that. But this group told me to then get this off the ground, because I really wanted

to see, given the impact it was having for me in my school, I wanted to take it to the UK. And honestly, the reflection on the differences, some of the commonalities as well of the leadership, you know, how you lead in both contexts. But some of the differences are quite stark. And I suppose one of my thoughts is schools have got a really deep structure.

You know, when you actually look at it and you go 30,000 feet up, you've got a timetable. So someone's decided the timetable. So straight away, every single person and now there's more head teachers, more executive head teachers that don't teach, which is, you know, absolutely fine, because I actually think some head teachers are better because they're more strategically placed. But when I was teaching your head teacher and your vice principal, they were also on timetable. The whole organization had a structure before you even started.

And then you as a middle leader or an assistant principal at a percentage timetable. And then you've only got so much wiggle room outside of that. Right. And then on top of that, the timetable pretty much dictates your activity. So, right.

OK, I've now an assistant principal. I'm on 70 percent timetable or 65 percent timetable. I have to allocate X amount of my time to plan in the lessons that I still teach. I have to allocate X amount of time to marking the work.

So the real difference that I found, which is a massive eye opener to me, and it took a while to adjust, is 70 percent, 80 percent of your activities in a school environment are almost planned for you. You've got to go and then execute. Right. Not to mention the time you've actually then got to go and teach.

So 80 percent of your time is quite dictated. And then you've got to be really sharp in what you're going to do with the rest of your 20 percent of your time. And they're your decisions. When I moved into business and I never forget this, I always used to tell this story. You can do whatever you want.

There's no structure. There's no timetable. There's no, Brett, you need to beat your desk by nine. And the other really strange thing for me as well, Shane, when you start your own business is no one also cares.

Right. So these are things that are really fascinating to really unpick. Because if someone says, Brett, are you free on Monday to discuss X, Y and Z at 11 o'clock? And I turn around and say no.

And that was a business decision that impacted the business negatively. There's no one ringing me up going, why did you do that? You then start to learn very quickly. You carry all of it because it's like, OK, like even on an investment journey, your investors are investing, knowing the risk.

And even if the investment doesn't work out, you're potentially one of the horses that didn't work. So, OK, you know, I've got a portfolio of investment. So you start to really realize you're like, oh, I've got to create the whole entire infrastructure. I've got to create not only the timetable.

I've got to create what happens within that timetable. I've got to make the decisions. It shifted so much for me, even my lifestyle, how much alcohol I drunk, my exercise, my sleep routines, because there were some days I would go into teaching even as an assistant principal where my day is dictated. I'm teaching four periods.

I'm meeting the vice principal at period five. I'm teaching period six. I've got an after school fixture. There is no decisions to be made.

It is simply execution. Yeah. But when in business, Monday comes, what are you deciding to do? I never forget it.

One of the first conversations I had, there was a potential partner really early on, we had tracking for P in English. And he said, are you free? It was something like Tuesday at 10 o'clock. And I remember opening my calendar and it was empty for months.

I replied to him. I said, oh, Tuesday's a bit tight, actually. Can we do Wednesday? Just so it didn't look like you've got this complete freedom of everything, or you haven't got anything in the diary.

And he came back. He was like, yeah, Wednesday works, but no problem, right? Now, I would never do that now because I'm taking the opportunity, given how busy we are. But it's like one of the things that was really difficult to make the transition was.

And I suppose that's the depth of the question you're looking for is just the nature in which you're leading with regard very specifically to the decision making process. And it becomes a complete open book. Some teachers have come out and left our teaching and join people progress and found the transition really easy. And they're like, wow, I can actually decide what I'm doing at 11.

And then leadership takes a whole new level because it becomes quite project based and you're not going, I need this by this day. And it becomes much more macro management rather than micro management. Some have joined our company and not been able to cope and actually just gone back to teaching because there's not enough structure. This is really interesting to me, Brett, because that transition from structure and not just structure within a timetable, but structures on deadlines, for example, this report is always doing at this time because reports go out at the end of term on this thing and getting X, Y and Z.

This is your performance management happens here. This happens here. This is when your professional development happens, you know, and everything being timetable, moving into that non-structured role, which for me, the first time it happened for me was not moving into business so much, but moving into the business operations of an international school group, where all of a sudden I was in an office, a central office rather than a school. And all of a sudden going, there's no structure to my day.

All of a sudden the deadlines that you've create, you mainly create for yourself and you are all of a sudden responsible for you being in work at nine o'clock, not because there's something instantly to do at nine o'clock unless you have a meeting, but because you've got stuff to be getting on with and you've got goals to achieve and you haven't got that structure dictated to you. And it's interesting you brought up that. I love your story about the guilt that you had for having what appears to have a free diary ahead. I share my calendar with people and I block out certain days and I've looked at it sometimes and I go, gosh, when they look at my calendar, they must sometimes think Shane just has all this free time because as a teacher, if you looked at that, that would be your extra time, but actually that time is filled with all of your project work, all of these different things you're doing.

It's just more flexible, right? That's a shift in mindset. Yeah. And you know what, just a little addition to what we're talking about here, because I'm always conscious of the audience listening to this is some people think that the grass is always greener.

Oh, I'd love to be able to wake up and I read an article that shifted my whole mindset early in business, which was they did some research and it was the percentage of business that failed with no accountability, right? So the founders and the people that were running their own day that didn't want to answer to anyone. And what they noticed was that their percentage of those businesses that failed was really high because people think they don't want to answer to anyone. But then when you actually go, no problem, you were making all the decisions, you then realize just how much comes with that and also what comes with that if the decisions don't go well, and you've just got to really ask yourself, like if you want to come out of education and you want to deeply look at your personality type, deeply look at what actually really makes you tick and what are your motivators before you jump out and go, yeah, this life's better.

And actually you spent quite a long time learning that that's not really for you. Now, of course, it's amazing learning that you're going to do if you do do that and decide that you do want to come back into teaching, but some people just don't think about that. What really comes with, are you ready to manage your own day, like truly manage your own day and then be responsible for that? And it's just something that's really worth considering because I've seen a lot of people do it.

And then they go, I didn't realize actually how much I enjoyed about that life and what I was been able to deliver on because of that. I really resonate with what you just said, and I miss that in a way. And it was a bit of a shock for me, especially starting on my own, that all of a sudden I was the only person who was going to hold me accountable. Like you said, no one else cares.

And that sounds like if you can paint it with one brush, that it sounds great, can you? But then the other side of it is, are you motivated enough to be able to plan your schedule in such a way? And how is that going to look for you or are you going to, as I did for quite a while, just mess up your day and timetable and waste your time? When you transitioned, did you get it right straight away? What happened for you?

It was really tough, actually. I had to do a lot of deep learning. Some eight months before doing my master's, I actually learned I was quite severely dyslexic and I learned that actually didn't just relate to physical activities. It also relates to your emotional state.

It relates to personality, you know, energy levels. It relates to an awful lot when you actually start learning about it. And I had a particularly tough 18 months because I left teaching, moved home with my parents because there's any way I could afford to actually get the business off the ground. And I was working.

I was like, no problem. I'm in my room. I'm working and then I will take a lunch break and I'll go downstairs to the kitchen. And then this evening I'm going to go to the gym and then I'm at home and I'm like, well, I'm watching TV and I'm wasting time because at the time I spent watching TV, I could actually be doing a bit more.

Or actually, why don't I just tweet and put some stuff out on social media while I'm watching TV. And then what I found was the other part of me, which hadn't learned this yet, is my personality type really feeds off the energy of others. That's not to say I'm an energy drain, which is like, you know, I need to engage with people all the time is ask yourself this question. If you've got a really deep task to do and you need real focus and you need to get the job done because it's a really complex, psychologically tough exercise, where do you go to do that?

Now, if you go to a room and you need isolation and quiet, you are a personality type that likes ex. Me, I will go to a coffee shop and I'll need to be around people and I can put headphones in and I can feel a bit of hubbub. And then I will get lost for three hours. Right.

Yes. Now they were some of the things that I actually struggled with in school, because now I know that about myself, there's some things that it was just forever. Like I'm trying to get on with something and this has happened and this has happened and so and so, and this kid's been removed from that class and can you go? So a lot of what I've now learned is a lot of that work that teachers do in the evenings are work that requires deep focus that they can't do because of the way in which they work in a school environment.

Right. So I found it particularly challenging. So what was happening was in that working day, I ended up kind of getting so low in energy that I would need an afternoon sleep at two half two in the afternoon. And I'm just, this is not right.

And I was seeing a business coach at the time and we were trying to work through a few things. And then when I joined an accelerator program that gave me a place of work that created a community around me, I then started to feel more of a routine in a structure. Oh, okay. I need to wake up at seven because if I don't wake up at seven, the journey's too long and I'll waste hours.

So if I wake up at seven and I'm out the door by half seven, I can at least get to brighten by nine o'clock. So then that often meant I ended up leaving at six thirty seven, seven latest, which meant, well, you really need to get up at six o'clock if you want a coffee. And then that routine started and then because I was working all day, I then realized that those sleeps weren't to do with anything other than me being able to actually get energy from the people in the room. And it wasn't even just the energy of other people. It's also recognition.

It's also being part of a community. It's also feeling purpose. So the reflection I had was actually I was quite low because that whole no one cares business. People cared now because, oh, you know, that's Brett, Brett's from Pupil Progress. We're native and we've got a team

of three and Brett's a team of two because he's bought on a co-founder Barnaby. And then you start to realize that actually your energy levels aren't just being around people. It's recognition of your existence. It's the fact that you're part of a community, the fact that you have a belonging. Right.

When I was part of that accelerator program, things that people overlook, crazy things like you have a persona or a nickname. Right. So I got called the hustler because I was always phoning schools. Right.

So those things, they give you that, oh, I'm part of this is personalized. I'm part of this community. I'm part of this. I have a belonging.

Right. And then when we actually left that accelerator program, I then learned enough to know, okay, great. Well, we've got six months where we'd buy ourselves a bit was just us two, me and Barney, but we know we're going to grow that team, which means we're going to get that structure and that purpose and that belonging and that recognition back. But that 18 months where I was working by myself from my house, my parents' house, that was tough because you know, something's wrong, but you don't know what is and that's the hard bit, right?

You really know something. It's not right here, but I don't know how to, and it was only through that business coaching and then the reflection on because people often go and speak to someone. Something's going wrong. What they don't do is then go and speak and continue to speak to someone to reflect on what's going well, because then you've got that reflection point of going, Oh, that that's working.

Well, what's working well in comparison to what wasn't working well, and then the learning goes. Wow, you know, Oh, okay. Right now that things are working and I can reflect, I can really see what wasn't working and now what is working and most importantly, here's the key. Why, why is it working?

Well, this is a challenge now with, with all of business, with school is understanding how different people work within your team, because all of the things that we've been talking about now, you've got the person that loves going to a coffee shop and wants to hub up, but then you've also got people that just goes, I just need to be in a room by myself with no music. Otherwise this isn't getting done. So that's the challenge then you've got to work out. How do you facilitate that?

And don't go, well, I work like this. Everyone now must work like this. And that's the way that everyone should work. Today's episode is supported by the teacher development trust.

TDT's associate qualification in CPD leadership is so perfect for international school leaders. It's fully accredited and it's delivered online over 10 months. In it, you'll create an actual CPD that's continuing professional development strategy for your school based on research that shows well planned PD improves pupil outcomes and teacher attention. And I actually did this program myself and hands down is some of the best professional development I've ever done.

So much so that I am delighted to be co-delivering this special Asia cohort, which starts in November. If you want to learn more, go to TD trust.org or click the link in the show notes. This episode is supported by the international curriculum association. Now I've been

working with the ICF for quite a few years, but they've been around for 30 years and they've been around championing quality, unlocking potential and improving learning in international schools right around the world. I really, really love that at their core is a model for improving learning. And this model is focused on the learning experience and they have tons of great curriculum materials, PD resources, and even an accreditation pathway for schools just like yours. So if you're interested and I really do recommend you check them out, head over to international curriculum.com.

If we've all got these slightly different working styles and patterns and I recognize what you're saying. I actually enjoy a productive hub. I don't like being distracted, but I work in a WeWork, you know, one of those common workspaces and I love it. Like I could have worked from home. That should have

been the sensible decision when you start your own businesses to not pay out, but I didn't. I knew that about me. I knew if I was sat at home on my own, I would not be productive. And so I get into this space where it's a beautiful space because everyone else is busy, but they're not busy on my stuff. So we all care about

each other. We don't care that much like it's, that's kind of nice for me, but it's now got me thinking, aren't we fortunate that we'd be able to figure that out? And do schools offer leaders that space to figure out what works for them? I wonder if there's some restrictions that are actually stopping our leaders from realizing a potential.

I believe they are, and I can give some examples. So I found in our building, brand new building. Well, I said brand new. It was like really modern building. And on the

second floor, right at the far side of the building was this office that no one knew existed, no one. And it was next to like a janitor's cupboard, you know, not like an old school janitor's cupboard. It was a relatively modern cupboard, but people just assume that that door was something to do with the fact that it was, you know, some kind of maintenance storage. And I found this office and I would just disappear. And

you might think, okay, Brett, you know, we're talking about leadership and we're trying to talk to people that we hope have got a level of competency. That to me sounds like you're incompetent because two things happened was wonderful is I could have two hours where no one could actually find me so I could get really deep things done. And it meant that I didn't have to then take it home because there's just too much happening. So people in a PE department will resonate this. But if you

think about the office spaces of most middle leaders, they are directly in some corridor somewhere. They are very close to the lessons. Right. Yes. So instead, if I

was building a school now, there's so many things I reflect on. I would create a space in which teachers could check in and get equipment. But I'd have the actual department offices nowhere near the classrooms so that you could actually get the work done. Right. Because

you've got every change of bell, every changes. So if a teacher is not teaching for four hours, they're in an office trying to work. But then every 20 minutes, 15 minutes, something is guaranteed to happen. So without getting distracted, I went and just lost myself in that space. And then towards

the end, after I'd had in my notice, someone found me and was just like, so this is where you go. And then they found the office and they started timetable it and I couldn't get in there and all sorts. But anyway, I didn't mind because I'd had in my notice. But the other thing I found as well, which is really fascinating from a leadership perspective, the number of times I'd have someone come up to me and say, I was trying to find you and I needed you to answer this. And I said, okay,

is it still a problem? Well, no, no. Okay. Why is it not a problem? Well,

because I did this. So you didn't need me then. Yeah. But you know, what if it goes wrong? I said, well, I'll

help you fix it or we'll get together and we'll solve the problem. But ultimately you've made a decision and it's no longer a problem. So what it did do was it also started to empower my department, you know, future department leads. And then what I also did is when I was leaving, I told my deputy head of department, I'm going to be going. I'm not

telling the team yet, but I'm going to be really starting to distance myself and for you to step into the four and I'm going to not be so present around the office so that people start to come to you organically because you know how to run this department. The only difference is just the title right now. And it was just fascinating watching what happens when people took ownership. If there was places for other people to be able to go and actually get work done. I saw a

score a long time ago. It was up in the Milton Keynes area and they had a designated workspace for staff where it was a quiet room where you could go in there and it was away from classrooms. So if you are that type of person that needs that deep focus, but is also doesn't want to feel isolated and alone. They had a room to go to that allowed them to really deeply work on things that needs to be done by a certain point if the, you know, the vice principal was after it, et cetera.

You've got me thinking, this word's popping into my head and that's visibility. I think a lot of school leaders will hear a lot like if you're a school leader, you must be visible. You must be visible. Visibility is important. Like, and

then I remember that when my early leadership days kind of learning about that. And I certainly had that office when I became an assistant head, you know, for the first time and my office was banging in the middle of a corridor right on the teaching corridor. And it was told to me, Shane, keep your door open all the time. Like that's really important. And you go,

okay, all of that is in the pursuit of visibility, which is about connection with the team and stuff. That sounds great. But what about the work you have to do as well? And it sounds like what you're speaking to is that there's a bit of a problem with that. Like, because

you managed to, when you found that office at the end of the corridor, you found a place where you could actually get some deep work done. And gosh, this conversation is just making me think about how I would set up a school now if I was to, and that visibility question. What are your thoughts? Some of them really comes to mind with your discussion point is the word trust.

And it is used in leadership so much, but I feel like it's not deeply understood. And I give you some examples, relative anecdotes. When I was younger, the school I went to at lunch break, I could go and just sit in a classroom and the teachers would go to the staff room, but I could go in the building and sit in a classroom. But I remember our school policy was you, everyone had to be outside. So I said in

the leadership meeting, said, why are kids not allowed in the classroom at lunch? Well, they'll smash the computers. They'll, they'll steal stuff. Okay. But that's

fine. But aren't we really showing them that's what they're capable of by not letting them actually do it? And can we not have a sensible conversation and say, guys, if it's a bit rainy outside, or you just want to chill out with certain group of friends, you're welcome to go and use your form class at lunchtime to go and have lunch. Where is more suitable for you?

Just to let you know, though, if you can't be trusted and things start going missing and we start to get vandalism, then we've got to review it. Right. And it's the same with I've got a trusted mentor and he's, he's been revolutionary for me for 10 years. And one of the things he said to me quite openly, and I don't mind anyone in the team watching this, he said, Brett, you know, it'd be good for you to spend a little more time out of the office so that people really get into deep work and problem solve things themselves. And you

can start to make sure that you've got that capacity to make sure that you're able to see strategically across the business without getting pulled into stuff that can be solved by other people. The belief is that it can't be, it must need someone more senior. Well, actually, let's just say it goes wrong. So we've got a real strong culture in pupil progress. I'm a pretty

calm leader. My only frustration comes is if you don't make a decision. Now, if the decision doesn't work out, no problem. What do we do to solve it?

Because we've just learned something, right? We've always learned something. So even if it goes wrong, it doesn't matter because it's still going to be progress because we've learned something that stops that becoming a bigger problem in the future. And this visibility thing, and I remember it in schools, what does that really do to breed trust from every level? You don't need

me around. You've got this and you're capable of doing x, y and z. Sometimes our actions don't marry and everything's based on physical action. If you trust me that much, let me see it because at the moment you've got to be around all the time.

Otherwise everything's going to fall apart. And one of my most proudest things, and I don't often talk so favorably about my abilities. But when I left the department that I was running the very next year without me doing anything for 12 months, cause I wasn't at the school, they got the highest results that we've ever had as a department, which showed that I was not needed. Yeah. And my

journey, and this is what I talk around with my executive team at the moment is your job, Brett, is to become redundant. We are not needed. No one needs you anymore. In fact, we want to accelerate the place in which you become a pain in the backside for people because they understand the business so much that you're actually interfering with getting it done. It makes me

wonder how much of that we think about in schools. I love that we've brought this to trust because the structure of a school to come back to what we started to talk about can be great in a way. And we talked about how losing that structure can throw you into a sense of chaos starting a business. But also we've brought this conversation to a place where the structure also can stop trust building activities because maybe structure gets in the way of that. And that is

a really, really interesting dynamic. I'm fascinated by that. I wonder, Brett, just to kind of close off this conversation, how quick half an hour goes is incredible. That's crazy. If you were to go

back into a school now and go back into school leadership, having learned what you've learned on your journey of also leading people progress, is there anything you'd do differently? Have you got another two hours? The one that comes to mind immediately love just scribbled down here is the word focus. Right. And I'm going to

elaborate. So what people don't understand, which is because if they haven't run a business, it's very difficult to understand, is there is a fear of death. Your business can die. If you don't earn enough money, you don't generate enough revenue. If you can't

get another investment, you will not exist anymore. That's factual. So what you learn so quickly is you're like, Oh, okay, we've got to really nail this plan. And we've got to make sure that plan is so tight on what it is. We really need

anything else is a distraction. And I had this conversation with someone recently in our team. They're like, yeah, but that's something we need to do. I said, great. When do

you think we need to do that? Well, that's a task we definitely need to do next year. Okay, wonderful. So delete it. What do you mean?

Delete it. Well, what if we need to do it next year? We'll retype it because it will come up in conversation and we'll retype the action. I want us to only see what we need to do in the next month, three months, and then what bleeds into wider strategic plans.

Because what will happen is we'll learn so much from what we're executing now that will end up changing some of the things we thought we needed to do in four months that ultimately we didn't know we need to change. So we've got really high levels of focus, how that translates to schools. And this is only my opinion, by the way, this is not fact. This is just an opinion is lots of schools don't necessarily have this. They've got

offstead. They've got to really worry about, which I completely understand. I've had the misfortune of being involved in four offsteads, even in, you know, relatively short 12 year career. Now, we've always got to pay attention to offstead, but it's very rare that a school will close. Right?

So there is this mentality that we've got to do everything now. We've got to do, we've got to do that. We've got to do that. We've got to do that. This is where

these wild working hours and weeks are coming from. Because in my belief is that there is this idea that we can do everything now, whereas people have run businesses for more than five years. Understand that if we try and do everything now, we will die. Right? If we try

and do everything now, we spread ourselves really thin. We won't do the thing that makes 80% of the difference. And if we don't do the thing that makes 80% of the difference, we don't exist. So we're going to do that and ignore the other 20%. Schools, when

I see them and when I was in one and when, you know, when we work with them, it's, I want to do everything all now and it's still on our list. And it's what I would do if I was to go in and to be really focused on this last point, I suppose is a closing point. I would be absolutely ruthless in what gets cut, as in literally putting the bin is not on your day today and exercise the ability for teachers to really focus on teaching and learning and feedback. And I would also not be so heads up on what's happening in between those lessons and looking at free periods and going, well, if you've got that free period, you've got time to do X, Y and Z. Where

is the importance placed on? Right. That was a really intense two hours. Let me just go and listen to a podcast and get a coffee and decompress. So I'm

ready for period three versus I've got a free, I'm going to get some work done in that free. And I'm going to go to period three, pretty exhausted and not prepared. And I'm going to go to four the same. I would strip everything because what the offstead criteria is, it doesn't tell you the house has to be built like this. It

tells you what needs to be in the house. You can make your house pink. You can have it a bungalow. You can have it in multiple sites. As

long as they've got the structure that ensures that students are safe, that they've got, you know, the opportunity to learn all of the things that we know have to, you know, make sure of an offstead. But sometimes I feel like it gets used as a bit of a checklist versus the art of the possible athletes that we know. And I'll use Lionel Messi because whether you like football or not, most people know Lionel Messi is right. So you never turn around to Lionel Messi and say, you know, great 90 minutes Lionel, you've got enough time before you get in the car though.

Let's just we've got to turn the change room out and we've got to actually there's a couple of shelves that need putting up up in the boardroom. But you've got a couple of hours before you'd be like you go and rest, go and recover, go and eat well. I need you for that 90 minutes. And I just think it's so massively overlooked what burnout teachers go through because we haven't just gone. Your

job is to teach really well, plan really good lessons, delivering best lessons you possibly can recover so that you're ready to do the same again. So that's what I would do. I would just be ruthless on what we think needs doing versus what actually needs doing and kind of bring in a bit of that business mentality that there is a point at which we can die and that death can look like teachers leaving. This was a great conversation with Brett. I

really liked how he talked about his department getting the best results the year after he left. It made me think, how are we creating the conditions for our people to thrive or are we just keeping everyone busy? Here's what I reckon you can take from this. First, ask yourself honestly, what your working style is.

Do you need that coffee shop buzz or do you need complete silence? Second, look at your to-do list and be ruthless. What's actually making 80% of the difference? And third is think about trust. Are your actions

showing your team you trust them or are you always hovering? You can find Brett and his brilliant work using the links in the show notes. Education Leaders is hosted by me, Shane Leaning, thanks to the show editor, Pete McGill, production assistant, Skyler Rose Sturman, and for the original music by Guillermo Silva. And thank you so, so much for tuning in today. If we don't

speak before, I'll see you here next week. If you want to learn more about the brilliant work of the teacher development trust and the international curriculum association, you can find them using the links in the show notes.