Ethical School Leadership | A Conversation with Dr Yael Cass

Compliance feels safer than ethics. It's tangible, right? You can tick the boxes, you can point to it when things go wrong. But what if our reliance on compliance is actually making us forget the humanity in our organizations?

Today, we're talking about the difference between following the rules and genuinely doing right by the people who serve your students. Hey everyone, I'm Shane Leaning. Welcome to Education Leaders, the chat-talking leadership podcast for school leaders just like you. As an organizational coach, I've helped thousands of leaders across the world lead with greater confidence, make better decisions, and create winning teams.

And on this show, we explore the strategies that are gonna help you achieve your goals and transform your leadership practice. This episode is supported by the International Center for Coaching in Education and the International QuickLem Association. Stay tuned to learn more. My guest today is Dr. Yael Cass.

She's an organizational strategist. She's also co-founder of NextGen Talent Group and creator of the Ethical Employer Framework for International Schools. And this conversation genuinely challenged me, particularly around transparency, around power structures, and what we mean when we call people support staff. Let's jump in.

Let's start by saying that compliance is important. I think compliance is a minimum standard. It's externally driven and a task-based thing. Like if we think checklists, contract sign, background checks completed, and grievance policy on file.

Now, when we say compliance, there is the other side, which is ethics. And ethics is deeper. It's culture-driven, it's emotionally aware, and internally owned. And it's not just what you do, but how and why you do it.

And it's about asking, how this decision affect these people? How this process affect these people? Is it fair? Is it kind?

Does it align with our values even if it's hard? And I think if we go deeper, compliance is easier for leaders. Compliance is easier for organization. It doesn't require you to reflect deeply on or touch the emotional discomfort or uncertainty, ambiguity, conflict, guilt, or complexity.

And leaders can stay in their heads, ticking boxes without needing to engage with emotional intelligence. Guilt, again, is a big thing in this process. Self-awareness, or even wonder, is this the right thing to do for this person in this moment? Do you know, it's something that I worry about a bit, actually, with leadership, is that sometimes I think leaders, we've got so many things to do and so many pressures, sometimes our first response is compliance, like utilizing compliance.

And I think as like you mentioned, it forgets the humanity of your organization. Right, but even if we talk compliance, okay, it could be really dry and mechanical way or thoughtful, human-centered way. And it's about this thoughtfulness, the intention that brings ethics and reflection into compliance and turns it into something meaningful, something different, something softer. So even if you give a little bit into compliance plus, I would call it, then you're already in a process of thinking through compliance, not just ticking boxes.

I love that, yeah, because sometimes you think you have to do that big leap, but actually sometimes it's like just make a slight adaption if you did compliance plus, that would be much better than just where you're sitting right now. I really like that. Do you have any examples of like how this kind of tension plays out or how this could play out in schools? Well, it's funny because I'm doing a master in counseling at the moment.

And this morning I saw a video, it's called why moment or something like that. And it actually connects the dots for me with compliance and it's the gut feeling and where ethics comes in when you have emotions where you're angry or where you think fast and you need to find a fast solution. It's like a cartoon kind of thing, it's very cute and it says, okay, you're in the middle, just stop, breathe and say this wise thinking, wise thinking and then something will come up. So I actually did that and it is, it's helpful.

So I think, you know, school gets stuck in compliance and for many leaders, it's really hard. The emotional part is really hard. It's so compliance feels safer, especially in international schools because that's the audience we're speaking to where legal exposure and governance risks are high and compliance becomes a protective shield. It's something you can point out to Sarah.

We followed the process and we've done that and it's visible, it's tangible. It's emotionally easier. Ethical leadership requires, like I said before labor, reflection, discomfort and that's referring to what you said. It's sometimes so difficult, right?

But even this, these little steps of pausing for a second and thinking, put myself in the shoes of the others. I think this is really important and that's something I keep on doing because I've been through quite a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty and things that I had to make decisions fast and I always think about this person that my decision will impact. How would I feel if I were in their shoes? I love that.

I'm thinking just those two prompts for me. How would I feel? But also that wise thinking, wise thinking, just taking a moment when you're implementing something or making a decision just to take a pause. That's a really powerful step.

I really, really appreciate the way you frame that Yael. So I wonder like for listeners, like when Yael and I first chatted, we had a really amazing chat because we've got very similar passions and interests for the way organizations work and systems and how you implement change in organizations and I know you're doing some just brilliant work. And one thing we touched on which I thought was very interesting was about power structures or hidden power structures. And when we're making decisions, how power is distributed or how decisions are made.

I was wondering if you would be able to talk a little bit to this topic in your experience. Yeah, I think we take for granted sometimes the structures that we have in international schools in terms of the director. But with the schools, I've done a lot of consulting over the years. And every time I look at this structure, it's there, every organization have their organizational structure.

You look at it and you think, what's going on here? It's like a ball of spaghetti. When I look at it, I don't understand who has authority and who hasn't. Who is supervising, who are not really clear sometimes.

Are those people that are with the same kind of title are aligned that they have the same authority, the same power and the same maybe salary structure so people can understand that that's the level of leadership. For example, you can have principal, principal, head of department when I'm talking about the operation professional. And then suddenly there's a manager in all of this line. Or the director is the director of the school.

And then under him or her, there are suddenly other directors. This is foundational. People need to understand the organization, need to understand where they stand in the organization. And I think it's so important in our school systems because in most international schools, the communities are very tight.

They're working together, but they're also living together. And when those structures are not clear and the nature of the industry is very networky. So you find your job with someone you worked before and those kinds of things are very, very powerful. And we can see it.

Informal networking can become a very powerful thing. And they reflect in many areas of the day to day. So like when decisions are made based on who's in favor, who's socially closed. We've been around for the longest that we've got schools that people have been there for ages.

Rather than clear process, clear structure, race confusion. Yes. Do you think this is a problem particularly challenging for schools or international schools? Because I know you had background in many different types of organizations before, right?

Yeah, no, I think it's universal. But I think in international schools specifically, it's amplified. And the reasons are varied. But one of the reasons is that and I'll touch something that I've been advocating for years and years and years is the this valuing maybe or the operation professionals.

And we call them in school support stuff. Just think about this word, you know, but if they are taken as not as an administrative assistance rather strategic partners, a lot of these things would be different. And even in schools that, you know, keep saying that they're equal organizations or giving equal opportunity. It's still support stuff.

What I mean by that is we have to think about organizational structure, how they are there in this mix. So head of manager suddenly. What does it say? Do they actually HR manager?

Can they help me as an employee? Can they give me the support? Do they have the authority if I come to them with an issue? I don't know.

So I think this is something very strong within international school and schools in general. Yeah, this is really powerful to me and support staff. I mean, that's still just the predominant way to describe staff with operational. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about those roles then, because what I'm hearing from you is you said there can be confusion as to what the titles mean and what the roles are in schools.

And then also there can be assumptions made based on the titles. Is that a lot of work you do with organizations then is trying to unpick roles? And I assume when you start to get clarity on that, something changes. Well, it's roles and responsibilities and I don't know why we never follow up on roles and responsibilities, for example.

So you've got the chart, right? And then you write the description for each of those roles. Those are usually not open to everyone. Each one keeps them to themselves.

It's not something that I can go in and check what is the role of the head of academics or the curriculum director. It's written very vaguely. And as an employee or as someone that works like an educator in the classroom, and this is another thing that we keep using teacher, teacher. They're not teachers anymore.

They're educators. They're doing so much more than teaching. It matters all these terms, all these words, all these things that we keep on doing because we've done it for years. We need to put it into our system and think, OK, I sometimes, you know, say support stuff because it's just I'm speaking to everyone and then they say support stuff and I keep on saying it.

But I at least hold back and say, OK, I made a mistake here. Operational professionals or educators. So just an educator wants to raise an issue and doesn't know where to go. If there was a bank of all the roles and responsibilities that he or she would know where to go and see the actual role that this person does would be wonderful.

Don't you think that's transparency? Yes, that aligns with the structure. But we don't have it. And most schools, when they advertise the job, they keep this like that.

Even when the person I've been in schools that the job description hasn't changed for six years. But this person does completely something else from what they were describing in the beginning when they came on board. So this needs to be reviewed every year with your appraisal. Or conversation as humans, we have more to offer than just our role.

And if we're giving this opportunity and the role and this role is changing, evolving with me as an individual, that's awesome. That's growth. That's progress. You've got to be very curious on this.

So I'm trying to think why we treat job descriptions, job roles in the way we do. And is it something to do with that just generally used to advertise a role and then not reviewed? Or do we not share them transparently in the way you say it? Because some people see it as something that should be confidential, although that seems a bit strange.

I wonder what it is. I think it's lack of attention. It's nothing more than that. And the lack of understanding.

And I think when we speak about culture, which are, you know, very amorphic kind of stuff like your culture, what is culture? How do you measure it? You know, there are measurements, but it entails so many things and it's so complicated, especially in international schools. So I think with all the things that people have to do and because the lack of authority for HR, it's a missed opportunity to put systems in place.

And that's the system thinking. I think those tangible things get people the grounding they need within the organization. They know the process. They know what's done.

They know that they review it every year. And don't ask me what my goals are. Don't ask me what my goals are. I need to know the goals of the department, the school, the department, and then look at my job description.

And if you come to me and say, OK, let's see how you can expand then and give us more. And that's fantastic. Yeah, I can give you more. I've got more capabilities than just being the accountant in the school.

I think it just lack of attention to things that really matter. And it's not a mean intention or anything. Just again, that's the way we've been doing things for years. And that's why.

But if the HR would have a strategic role, they would work on talent management strategy. That's talent management strategy. Thinking what people need to become better, to progress. But if you know how individuals are acting within organizations, what drives them?

This is a process we always engage in. There's no way to stop it or to change it. We're engaged in sense making. Within organizations, it's something that, you know, when there is ambiguity or uncertainty, we immediately start working when you don't know where you're going and there's no clear systems in place.

You immediately think about yourself. What is the threat to myself? Do I self value, self-esteem, self-efficacy, you know, my social networks? Who is with whom?

Because we're social beings. And this process immediately trigger when you can't figure out what's going on. And I think once we understand that, we understand how systems are so important, not to dismiss this process, but minimize the risk of resistance, of toxic culture, of people starting to group with people who think like that. Because that's what we do as human beings.

This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association. The ICA have been around for 30 years now, championing quality, unlocking potential and improving learning in international schools. And what I really love is that right at their core is the model for improving learning. This is a model focused on the learning experience and they have got tons of great curriculum materials, PD resources and even an accreditation pathway for schools just like yours.

If you're interested, head to internationalcurriculum.com. This episode is supported by the International Centre for Coaching in Education, and I am actually on their current cohort. I don't recommend anything I don't believe in, and I am genuinely exciting to be strengthening my coaching practice this year.

The ILM Level 7 Certificate in Executive Coaching is built specifically for senior leaders in international schools. It's fully online, really practical and honestly, learning alongside other school leaders who get the context we work in as being brilliant. If coaching is something you want to develop properly, not just dabbling, head to theicce.org or click the link in the show notes and listeners to this podcast get an exclusive 5% discount using the code Shane 5.

That's Shane 5. So am I hearing that you would say this is closely tied to ethics, like there is an ethical reason to kind of pursue some of the things you're talking about here? Yeah, I think ethics is thinking about those individuals and doing the right thing for them at the end of the day. It's for you as a leader, right?

And the right thing for them to flourish and be engaged and productive. I know people in education don't like this word, but productive in what they do. Yeah, it's ethics. Don't you think so?

Well, yes, I do think so. But what I'm trying to do is to unpick this a little bit because I'm finding it interesting. If we're looking at ethics and valuing the individual, a lot of what you're talking around is I just feel is about being transparent in the process, having real clarity about what we're trying to do and what you're expected to do and where we go beyond what you expect to do. And that, I guess, creates a level of fairness throughout your system.

It's kind of what I'm hearing from you. Yeah, but it also clears a path for you as an employee that you know that, you know, if you want retention and trust and long term staff engagement, you have to go beyond checklist and ask, you know, are we living to our values? And it's called have values. And these things are the values of the organization.

You have people working for you. They are the talent that serves the students. So if you give them a way to have clarity and maybe transparency, you know, maybe transparency is the word we use. I hate to use transparency and I'll tell you why, because I've been so many years in international schools and this word transparency comes back all the time and it's everybody's talking about it.

And I think it translates in many communities to I will tell you everything. And you have to be involved in every decision that is here, even though sometimes, you know, people who sit in the table to make those decisions don't have the experience to see the broad picture. So it's not about sharing everything. Well, even if you're not an organized person like me, you like to see some structure.

Yeah. And I think the structure really helps you to be motivated because you know how you're evaluated, you know what you're doing. You know that your old description will go for review every year and maybe you can offer something else that you suddenly want to do or suddenly thought of doing. And it's not professional development.

It's something that you can provide. Right. So I think that's why I'm so cautious to say that transparency is what I'm talking about. And by ethics, I'm saying do what is right by your people.

There are some things that need to be in place, but you have to think about also the culture of the place and only head of schools know the community is best and the people that are involved there. I like how you've framed that Yael because so I understand the distinction now, transparency. You don't just want total transparency, but you do want parameters and structures and clarity because that's safety for your team. It's safety to know where they are living within, right?

And then that lack of clarity can feel very psychologically unsafe when you feel you're in a place where you don't fully understand the structures. So let's talk about a small example, OK, for the structure and the powers that we talked about before. And you posted also something this week about professional development. And I jumped in because this is so hot topic.

And there was another lady, I forgot her name, who interact and developed something amazing. Catherine, yes. Yeah. And again, it's from my visits in schools and speaking to employees and speaking to educators and having been in the professional development space for operational stuff for a long time.

PD is where this is something very apparent, you know, where the power structures come in and the disorganization. OK, and it's obvious because the lack of systematic structure in schools and the way, again, I go back to the way we operate as a sector where we working with networks. Who knows who hires who? So referring to systems, there is no buffer between those who hire you, evaluate you, your performance and provide the benefits.

HR in most schools function as an administrative assistant rather than the business partner I was talking about before, who is in charge of career development, talent management strategy and PD. The involvement of the principal and the curriculum coordinator is very, very important here. But to the point where they say what they need in terms of, you know, where the where the organization goes, so what professional development they need and which department will take it on. But that's it.

It should end there. But in most schools, it doesn't. They decide who will be the ones who are getting the professional development. Now, it should be based on talent management strategy and job descriptions and school needs.

But in the lack of those systems, it is often that some stuff get access to coaching, training and conferences based on their visibility or personal report with leadership, while others are quietly left out. And without feedback or opportunity to grow, you know, people are disengaged. There's no transparency around who's selected and why. Right. If you had a system

and you know what the criteria are and you know that the person who choose those people to go forward knows what where they're going, you know, knows what where these employees want to go in the sense of their career, of their progression. You don't need to fight. You know, there's no stress to fight over your role, to be there. I'm missing something.

Something is happening behind the scenes that are not there and and have no control over. Well, there is a system, there is a little bit of assurance, calm, and we don't have it in schools. It's really interesting to me because one thing is clarity of the systems and processes to ensure equity of access to that opportunity. And it sounds like what you're saying is that potentially situating that as in like traditional organisations, that would be situated within the HR responsibility.

But schools have got this slightly strange. Most of the professions don't have this, where the responsibility actually lies within maybe the line management system of the job, like curriculum coordinators, heads, principals. So do you think if it was redistributed and gave that responsibility to HR, that would improve the ethics of the decisions we make? Yes, because I think that will detach the principal or the line manager from giving you prizes for things that you haven't done, right?

Yes. You're just being close to them. And if you think about it as well, in schools, that again goes back to the compliance, right? In schools, the director or the principals are asked to do a lot of things.

I mean, let's speak about the head of school facilities, risk management, HR in many cases, because everybody goes to the head of school instead of the HR, because, you know, there's no authority. So they don't know if this person, if they come with their issue, this person has the authority to actually solve their problem. So that's an overload. In any other organisation, this would be distributed differently, and the head will have time to do what they're doing.

So that's another, you know, why schools are so hectic and never have time for anything else, because the roles of the principals and the head of schools is doubled with administrative tasks, I would say. It's almost impossible to punch us. It really is. This conversation has been really fascinating to me because I hadn't really thought about that in that way before.

And yet when you start to think about the load principals carry, even just from that perspective, and you think there is a win by distributing some of that to your team, I wonder to kind of close up our conversation now, for a leader who's listening and they might be thinking, yeah, that's really interesting. These are some really interesting points to reflect on. Is there one practical step that you think they could take to move towards a more ethical workplace in the way you describe? Yeah, there are ways to taking action.

And the first step is simple but powerful. Look for the gaps between what's written and what's actually happening. OK, ethical workplaces aren't defined by policies. They're defined by the lived experience.

So start small, choose one area that touches everyone like recruitment or promotion and audit it for alignment. Is the process clear? Do people understand it? Does it reflect our values?

I also think we make job descriptions accessible to review like we said before. But one big one that I keep hearing from a lot of people, and I think it's a really basic thing that we keep doing. And it's very compliance at the moment. Compliance tick boxes kind of thing is the appraisal.

And if you just go and ask your employees anonymously to answer whether they feel that the current appraisal system supports them, give them any direction, help them in any way and, you know, send this out, wait for the results when it comes back. I think people will be really surprised to see what the answers are because I from the schools that I visited that worked with and myself, you know, it's not just in schools. It's also in an organization that I've worked for. It was for ticking the boxes.

There was no feedback. There was nothing happening after. I didn't feel that this process for myself, my lived experience in many organizations I worked for did not go anywhere. And there were different organizations and the same here.

And I think also for teachers here, there's a level of class management appraisal, which is very, very professional to the point. But there's nothing about where you want to go, what do you want to do? But meaningful. They might be something like that, but it's meaningful with action afterwards.

And again, I think the action afterwards relies on another function that does talent management. Can I ask then if these things kind of were sorted and we kind of zoomed into the future and schools were operating more effectively, what do you hope for? What does that look like to you? I think there's no perfect thing, right?

But I think showing intention and doing something about it is really important. And that's ethics. You know, I don't think there is a perfect organization out there that does all of those things. And the employees are so happy.

And no, I think what we came up with the ethical employer, if I may speak about that for a second. Yeah, sure. Is to create the intention of becoming an ethical employer. So it's not a fail or pass kind of process.

It's a process where school leadership and schools are thinking about how can they support their employees for them to do a better job. So even if you're just in the process of getting this is how I see it, in the process of getting some system or the appraisal system, for example, improved. That's ethical. That's ethical that you're becoming an ethical employer and ethical leader because you're thinking about those you serve.

Actually, you know, we keep saying we're serving the students. Yes, we're serving the students in school, but leaders serve their employees because their employees are serving the students, right? The students are the most important thing and I do not disagree with that. But I think you need to think about the employees for them to support the students.

I have to say this conversation really got me thinking differently about some things I've taken for granted. I thought Yael's point about compliance versus ethics. I actually thought it's not just philosophical. It's actually deeply practical.

When she talks about compliance plus that simple little pause to ask how would I feel if I were in their shoes or just thinking wise thinking wise thinking I like that before making a decision. Well, that's leadership that serves people. And here's what I think you can do from this episode. First, look at the gaps between what's written in your policies and what's happening in people's lived experience.

And second, you might want to have a check of your job descriptions. Are they accessible? Are they current? Are they reviewed every year?

And third, I like this. Send out an anonymous survey. Ask your staff whether your appraisal system actually supports them or helps them in any meaningful way. You never know.

You might be surprised at what comes back. You can find Yael and her amazing work using the links in the show notes. Go check them out. Education Leaders is hosted by me, Shane Leaning.

Thanks to my show editor, Pete McGill, production assistant, Skylar Rose-Sturmond and for the original music by Guillaume Silva. Thank you so, so much for tuning in today. And if we don't speak before, I'll see you here next week. If you're interested in the work of the International Center for Coaching in Education or the International Quicklym Association, check out the links in the show notes.