Coaching, positive psychology & Dean Clayden

Shane Leaning: Well, good morning, everyone. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you are in the world. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Coaching Done Well with me, Shane Leaning here in Shanghai. And my dear, dear friend, Jim Thompson. Jim, where are you in the world right now? And what are you up to?

Jim Thompson: Well, they're good questions. I'm in upstate New York. We have two seasons, Fourth of July and winter. Three days ago, we had two days in the 90s. And then on the weather report this morning, they're talking about don't, if you put any plants outside, bring them on in because there's be a frost warning. So it's a roller coaster kind of weather we have up here in upstate New York. Now, what's that weather like in Shanghai? Is kind of like Lake Wobegon, kind of all cool and above average? What's it like?

Shane Leaning: I have no idea what you just said, Jim. That was a gobbledygook to me, but I'm not gonna tell you how the weather is today. And there's a good reason why I'm not gonna tell you how the weather is today, because our guest today, although he harks from Scotland and we were having a bit of a geek out over Scottish snacks just before, which we need to continue that conversation, Dean, but he is also in Shanghai. Dean, welcome to coaching. Done well, how you doing, mate?

Dean Clayden: Hi Shane, hi Jim, thank you both for the opportunity you from relatively humid Shanghai actually. We're on that shoulder season between spring and the intense heat of summer or some say being close to the surface of the sun, which we're about to have next month. But it's relatively comfortable at the moment for the next couple of weeks. Thanks again for having me on the show.

Shane Leaning: ⁓ it's our pleasure. Actually, seriously, our pleasure. And I totally agree. Like Shanghai, it sounds similar to your to your weather over there, Jim, and that you just don't know what to wear. It's up and down like a yo-yo for a little bit. Like that's that's the that's it. We're in that yo-yo season and just getting into that sticky, sticky weather. But seriously, this is Coaching Done Well. And in this show, we talk about what coaching and what looks like sounds like feels like ⁓ with great people from around the world and Dean we're so delighted to be joined by you today and to hear a bit about your experience and expertise. Why don't you introduce yourself people joining us on LinkedIn Live or joining us on the podcast feed afterwards.

Dean Clayden: ⁓ thanks Shane. Yeah, so a primary school teacher or junior school teacher by trade. I off teaching in Scotland almost 20 years ago and then had the itch to go overseas. ⁓ to for one year ⁓ and that ⁓ 15 years Since then I've been working in a range of international schools and different leadership positions. in international schools in Shanghai. But more recently, the last three, four years, I've been doing more of a sort of consulting work and directing professional learning programs for a group of international and bilingual schools. And then also my other hat I wear is as a consultant for Growth Coaching International, which I know many of the listeners will know through Chris Monroe and Christian van Nuremberg and Jim Knight's work. that's been a kind of a career dream and goal to partner and work with them. And we're ⁓ trying spread the coaching work in China now. So yeah, a little bit about me managing those professional programs across a group schools and also doing the exciting coaching work as well for leaders and for teachers, is great.

Shane Leaning: Thanks, Dean. Super excited, super important work you're doing. And it's really cool to see you bringing some of that good work from the instructional coaching group, Growth Coaching International to China as well. And bringing that here, I know you've had some great successes. So that's just awesome. We're really excited to have you. We are also really excited to have our live guests. If you're tuning in, it's going to be two ways you're joining us today. You're either going to be listening on Spotify and podcasts. in which case you are so welcome. It is lovely to have you here joining us, but you may also be joining live because we put this out on a Thursday live on LinkedIn 21st of May is today and I can, Oh, I can already see we've got some people in the chat who are, who are loving to be here. We have got Everett joining us in the chat. He's also in Shanghai. He gives a bit of a whoop and go Shanghai says Everett and guess who else is here, Jim. You'll never guess. You'll never guess. It's an absolute regular friend of the show, previous guest as well, Jason Booton, the brilliant Jason Booton, glad to be joining you guys live. How cool is that? If you are joining us live, just like Jason, just like Everett, say hi in the chat, share your comments, share your questions. It would be great to get you involved in this discussion. Jim, I'm going to hand it over to you. How cool is this today?

Jim Thompson: Peace. Well, I tell you, this is way cool. mean, you know, I was a child of the sixties, so it is way cool. Dean, it's just lovely to have you. First question we kind of forecasted with Yearly, we just stole it from Michael Bungay-Stanye. It's his brand new question. His brand new question is, what do we now believe to be true? So Dean, to kind of start us off there, could I ask you, Dean, what do you now know to be true? about the idea and ideal of coaching done well.

Dean Clayden: ⁓ no, thanks, Jim. And it's also such a joy to be here. would say many, many things. I think, first of all, I think it's quite ironic that when we talk about coaching, that ⁓ we're these communities ⁓ where encourage children to reflect and we them to be learners. to be vulnerable and to be open to make mistakes. ⁓ yet in the adult world, we have leaders in schools where we try to hold the space where we can't make mistakes. And got to pretend that everything's going well in schools. But being sort coach-like, ⁓ I think really the key thing. All those lessons that we teach children, For me, Coaching Done Well is where we have a team of adults who can be reflective, they can be vulnerable, and we encourage them to change and grow and improve. that all kind of really stems from a belief that people are capable. And therefore, if coaching is done well, we sort of hold that space with them to say, hey, how's your day going? Like, it's tough. It's tough and the job is tough. know, I think we're all very familiar with the fact that teachers have to make thousands of decisions ⁓ day. But coaching done well is actually giving teachers and leaders time to stop, time to think. And way do that practically is making sure that you actually have physical spaces for that. So when I was a vice principal in a school, ⁓ was two vice principals of one of my great colleagues. We made a coaching room, which sounds a bit kind of tokenistic, but created this space that people then started to talk about and it became the room to stop and think and check in. And then that had a ripple effect because everybody starts thinking, what's this thing that ⁓ Dean's doing? And yeah, I think if it's done well, It's about being really intentional, bringing that kind of community around sort of trust and making mistakes and being vulnerable and just kind of admitting that the job is tough. funny because we are, in experience, ⁓ we a lot about children having to regulate. But maybe it's a generational thing. We never got taught that at school. And I find a lot of teachers and lot of leaders need to regulate coaching itself is actually a really good vehicle ⁓ and might positive psychology intervention in order for to help adults to regulate because it certainly wasn't on the curriculum when I was at school. So, yeah, some of my thoughts on what it is do it well.

Jim Thompson: I love it. You know, one of our tenants of a coaching general is giving teachers a place to do their best thinking. I love how that resonated. Got a couple questions so far. It's just kind of about you and then we're going to have our interlocutor, Shane, kind of come on in here. yeah, I just love what going back into people's careers, what form their mindset. And I read in your background there that your dissertation at the University of Edinburgh was on what impact do male teachers have on underachieving boys? And being a male teacher, somebody in education, you know, I started in 1972, it was a little bit there. Can you talk to us, share a little bit about that impact, that dissertation, what impact do male teachers have on underachieving boys? Share a couple of the key findings and to what degree that still resonates with your idea of coaching, coaching done well.

Dean Clayden: Well, first of all, Jim, thank you for reminding me of that project. seems like a long time ago. ⁓ was certainly not prepared for that question. But you brought me right back to ⁓ lots happy memories at university at Edinburgh. Actually, ⁓ reason I... ⁓ I focused on that was because I think at that period of time there was a very small number of male primary teachers in the UK. I wanted to dispel the myth that just by being male meant it helped boys achieve more because actually what we found was that gender really isn't actually the thing makes an impact. And this was 20 years ago, so ⁓ I'm not up in the more recent research. But the key findings from that was that the sort of relationship with the children is the most important thing. know, being heard, being to, having that kind of connection with the children, uncovering what need, listening to them deeply, all those coaching behaviours that we know to be true, that's actually ⁓ more powerful support boys rather than the gender of the teacher. ⁓ Because I think also at the time a lot of female teachers felt as though, know, difficult boys would be sent to the only male primary teacher ⁓ the school. And then there was this kind of pressure for the man to create miracles for these boys just because they were the same sex. So was some of the key takeaways from it. But yeah, thank you for pulling me back to those ⁓ days.

Jim Thompson: I just did a quick personal aside. Part of my life was a self-contained elementary teacher and every year the principal would come by and he said, Jim, I got some tough boys coming up in fifth grade and I got to put them in your class. And you know, it just kind of like, wait, wait a minute. I wasn't the only person that could deal with good relationships. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I got one question with a follow-up here next and then we're going to give it our interlocutor, but

Dean Clayden: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: Dean, see you are involved with something called Start with the Heart, an exploration of teachers' experiences and impressions of positive psychology coaching. Can you share a little bit about with us a little bit about this work and how it affirms coaching done well?

Dean Clayden: Mmm. Yeah, absolutely. Thank The inspiration for that was I to do a Masters in ⁓ Psychology sort bring this psychological aspect of coaching into schools. So that project was looking at the coaching model that ⁓ use from Wellington, and Ian Henderson, know, with values driven coaching. and using that model from grade up, grade down, so hard head step, really looking into kind of values. And so that program was taking teachers through a four day coaching program and them the fundamentals of coaching skills. All the that we know to be true in terms of coaching, looking at values, ⁓ questioning techniques, really well. ⁓ And then we decided to it was a qualitative study, ⁓ teachers in China because there wasn't a research project at the time that looked at Chinese nationals' experience ⁓ expat teachers' experience in international and bilingual schools in China. And so what ⁓ we find out? Well, we out three... main things. first one was that just having a coaching program in schools ⁓ helped the teachers to connect better. Now this kind of disconnected world that we live in, the reports we had were that we actually understand each other better in the school. We're not walking past the corridor and asking, hey, how are you? I'm fine. but actually having the coaching workshops and the coaching trainer and the teams that I had to bond together, which led to a sense of community all this stuff where they were able to really understand each other's values. ⁓ because they knew one another's values, they were then able to look at what drives them together as a school community. The two things were around self-efficacy and leader efficacy, and then also around wellbeing. So we found that the coaching programme, no surprises, it made the teachers feel, I've got this. Like, can find a way forward. Once I've had this conversation ⁓ the coach or trainee coach, I do my job better. I've actually, I've got resources. ⁓ I'm find a way forward. And that, course... ⁓ we found improvements in self-reported coping and resilience and them saying, you know, I'm actually experiencing a more positive emotion and positive thoughts myself and the work that I do. You know, it kind of obvious, but I guess most school leaders would want their team to be experiencing those things. And so what the research showed. But the challenge is carving out the time to actually continue that work and do that, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

Jim Thompson: let ask this one follow-up and then I'm going to our international interlocutor, your neighbor in Shanghai here. Dean, your great colleague Growth Coaching International, Chris Monroe and John Campbell, they talk a lot about this idea of coaching stance.

Dean Clayden: Hmm.

Jim Thompson: Could you share a little bit about that, what your coaching stance, how it shows up with start with the heart and your thoughts on that? You know, just a little bit, and then we'll hand it over to Shane to kind of what's on his mind. So what's your idea of coaching stance and how it interweaves with all this?

Dean Clayden: Yeah, yeah, it's really good. mean, those three stances are, you know, the facilitative, the dialogical and the more direct. think with the start with the heart, it's really being purely facilitative ⁓ really believing that the, you know, what is in the best interest of the coachee, like what drives them, what's in their heart, what are their motivations, what are their desires, what are their passions? And so it's... really being in service of that educator or that teacher, like what's driving them. think that's a challenging thing for people because in schools that's maybe too ⁓ simplistic. we need to drive the agenda. We need to be much more ⁓ directive our stance where I'm going to sort of coach you towards something. But in my experience, if you take a holistic perspective on that teacher or that leader, if you work on something that they deeply care about in their life, whether that's to do with the job or not, it's gonna make them flourish and thrive and show up better anyway. So the stance is completely driven by them. obviously we might be dialogical where we might bring a bit of our advice and we might bring a little bit of our... experience into that. say, you know, this is how I see it. You and having that sort of back and forth as customers for change. But I say that as ⁓ a purist terms of coaching, I would always stay in the facilitator because ⁓ even if goal ⁓ is not perfect in the coaches mind, ⁓ it's definitely to have. an ongoing effect and help that person to show up and be better for the students and for the team that they work with. yeah, that's the kind of the link between the ⁓ of philosophy. think it's ⁓ Henderson in Wellington, UK, ⁓ says that coaching without values is not really coaching. And, you know, Ian was a huge mentor and for me in my coaching journey and values is really at the heart of coaching.

Jim Thompson: Lovely. Shane, what's on your mind hearing all this good stuff?

Dean Clayden: Hahaha.

Shane Leaning: a lot on my mind because what a rich conversation I've just had the privilege ⁓ listening to. My goodness, you... ⁓

Jim Thompson: don't know, Shane, how you doing out there? think internet got frozen or something. Are you, Shane, how you doing, buddy?

Dean Clayden: It's ironic.

Jim Thompson: I think that maybe he's... You think it got frozen up? This is live TV folks with no commercial interrupt. There's the man. The man is. ⁓

Dean Clayden: He's back. Here he is. He's back. He's back.

Shane Leaning: I was... I was chatting away to myself having a great old time. I'm thinking a lot at the minute, because that was an amazing conversation and you've covered so much, it's hard to know where to start. But ⁓ I do know where to start, there is a puppy in this conversation that we are not seeing, that we can hear in the background, Dean. I think we've heard it enough. It needs to make an appearance by the end of this show. The challenge there. Secondly, I'd love to pick up on something you were talking about, Dan. And again, I'd like people, if you're tuning in on LinkedIn, Everett, Jason, I see quite a few of you there, so I can see you there. So you can't hide. comments if you've got ideas. I want to pick up on something you said earlier, because I think it, I think it, ⁓ no. Have I gone again?

Jim Thompson: No, no, you're fine.

Dean Clayden: No, no, you're good. You're good.

Shane Leaning: ⁓ I'm still here. Okay. Okay. I can see. So for listeners who are around the world, me and Dean were talking about VPN issues before and you were in China, you have to access the internet through a VPN. It's my VPN. That's going, that's going funny now, which so if I cut out apologies, but I'm wondering, I'm wondering Dean about you said at the start are talking about being vulnerable about creating safety in conversations, being really important to coaching them well and What's interesting is I think that sounds like that's so important with your approach, with taking this positive psychology, with taking the idea of starting with a heart that almost needs more safety to go that conversation. So I'm wondering as a coach or as a coaching trainer, where do you start in ⁓ the level of safety that allows people to start with their heart? I'm really curious.

Dean Clayden: Yeah, that's a really good question. think that fundamental thing ⁓ choice who you partner with. So in lot of the trainings that we do when people are to be coaches or afterwards when they want to work with someone, I think choice in who you work with in the beginning phase is really, really important. So when ⁓ I'm just hoping that Shane's still here with us. When we partner up teachers as coaches in the trainings, it's very important to give them choice work with somebody that they feel comfortable working with. ⁓ after the workshop, it's making sure that they continue that partnership afterwards. That's the best way to kind of keep the trust going. So the way that plays out is that you know yourself when you want trust, when somebody in a school comes to you and say, Dean, I need coaching. And it's hard to kind of quantify that because schools want to buddy people up and they want to have lists. And ⁓ I that, get that. But there's also ⁓ a important part of this work about it being organic and about people being able to work with somebody to have that space. I know that's difficult for us as leaders because we want to manage everything. But a bit of choice around who they ⁓ work to hold that space. Of course, fear for leaders is what are they doing with that time? But that's because hard to measure those things in data. But are we the thing and how those things show up? The other thing I would say about trust is I trained with ISLC, the Institute of Strategic Leadership and Coaching, the faculty there with Caroline Jo, they do the ICF programs, and have this TVT model, is trust, value ⁓ tension. And talk about coaching relationship being really, really unique. because it has this lovely blend of trust in the beginning and then you get that value through the relationship. But there is also bit of tension or if you want to use the word challenge or stretch, whatever your word is, because that person's coming to you for growth. So you do need to challenge them or give a bit of tension. Because when you push them and nudge them a little bit after you've built that trust, that then adds value into the relationship and they'll keep coming back. So in my early coaching days working with ISLC, which is more corporate focused coaching, that TBT model like trust, value, intention is like such a great of acronym and model for thinking about trust. And, know, for just having a conversation. ⁓ where it's all really nice and I'm here to listen to you and you know, that's all great. It's like a little walk in the park, but without a little bit of tension and accountability, then ⁓ don't really get any value out of the coaching. And it's just being a master expert in how to push in and push back and, ⁓ know, ⁓ ask permission for that challenge as well, which is all to do with contracting and all the things that we know well about coaching. So. ⁓ So yeah, TBT is a good in terms of trust.

Shane Leaning: I've scribbled that down. love that TVT and yeah, speaks to that idea of productive right? And also just that coaching, should it be a neutral act? it? Coaching isn't neutral. It's not just a conversation. There's needs to be happening. We're moving forward in some way and the coach's responsibility in that conversation is to help that person move forward. What are you thinking, Jim?

Jim Thompson: I just, I love it. This is lovely. This is what Jim Knight would call better conversations. I harken it back. I had the great honor to work with Dr. Madeline Hunter, who kind of gave us a common language on this. And she talked about this idea of level of concern. And she says, you take a rubber band. She says, if you don't stretch it at all, there's no tension. If you pull it too much, it breaks. trick is to manipulate that tension, that level of tension so We motivate people to grow. So just connect it with me so very much. I got one follow up question here and then we'll kind of wrap it up. This is just lovely. We got to have this guy back next year. He better not, you I hope he doesn't get an agent. You know, we probably can't afford them, you know, but, know, ⁓ I love your colleagues. know Christian John wrote this wonderful book called growth coaching. And in book, they talk about, the idea of customers for change. We're hoping that in our coaching relationship, in our conversations, we give a place this idea of coaching for change is ⁓ and starts to grow ⁓ we can help nourish it and feed it. Can talk a little bit about this idea of ⁓ customers for change and ⁓ where that fit into your DNA of coaching?

Dean Clayden: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Jim. The connection's a little bit poor, but I think I got the question around customers for change. I'm not sure if you're still with me. ⁓

Jim Thompson: Yeah, somewhat yeah. I'm with you, buddy.

Dean Clayden: keep talking and hoping that it works. Yeah, I think it's to do with not forcing ⁓ coaching to staff and thinking carefully around, okay, so where on these stances are we? Are we having a sort of direct conversation ⁓ where we need do a bit of telling and a bit of mentoring? ⁓ around perhaps performance issues. that can start off as being quite direct, but we want to move that into dialogical so that there is this impetus ⁓ for and we can be more coach-like. Or have we got these kind of conversations where, you know, in staff room people are sort of venting and there's a lot of ⁓ negative problem talk. can we then sort of move people into solution talk and bringing them into that more sort of dialogical space around, well, what's wanted, what's preferred, what might a solution be? ⁓ so it thinking about that kind of continuum ⁓ you know, is this a compliance issue, is that an eventing issue, but then both those opportunities can ⁓ come a learning conversation ⁓ where gonna have this ⁓ dialogue what's wanted, what's preferred, how can we reflect, how can we improve and how can we sort of grow through that. And it's just being mindful of those opportunities to shift the conversation into a learning conversation.

Jim Thompson: I love you. It's a fabulous Eureka. Way back there, there's this lady by the name of Judith Warren Little. And she talked about the difference between congeniality and collegiality. And congeniality is, hey, what do you think of the World Cup? How's it going? You want to have a couple of pints? And you know that being principal, you know, blanking, blanking, blanking. You know, that's OK. But the idea of collegiality is sharing craft knowledge. And kind of what I heard, just ⁓ you wonderfully put it. we, well, how do we set up the conditions where we intrinsically share craft knowledge with one another so we grow? Because as we always say here ⁓ Coaching Done Well, where's the answer? The answer's in the room. The answer's in the room. We just have to give that place for it. Shane, what's on your mind as we wrap up with this marvelous guest?

Shane Leaning: I, I, is the word. I'm just having the best time. Like, and I'm learning so much that I know I need to go back and listen again, Dean. I couldn't be more thankful. And our, our guests who are joining us live on LinkedIn are also having a great time. Jason Booth and says psychological safety, there needs to be no ego in the space. And also have the legend that is Steve Barkley also joining us. Steven is wonderful to have you here also. friend of the show, been on a couple of times with the wonderful Bill Summers. He has a question, Dean, I wonder if we could just pose this to you and the ⁓ he talks about. ⁓ asks, how do you connect vulnerability with trust? How do you connect vulnerability with trust? I wonder if you've got any thoughts, thoughts there before we close up.

Dean Clayden: Yeah, I do, absolutely. I think it's about senior leaders modelling that vulnerability leaders ⁓ that. ⁓ from my experience, if you have senior leaders on a coaching skills programme and they're in that space and we partner together to show that vulnerability, as soon as those senior leaders model that, that then builds trust automatically in the faculty. And there's a empathetic human element to that because often the trust isn't seen the other way from the teachers up to senior leaders. But there's a sort of humanising thing around coaching where if those senior leaders are in part of that training or they're seen to be doing coaching and they're modelling that way of being about curiosity and being growth focused. then that's how can be vulnerable that then builds the trust and you then create that kind of community together. ⁓ think often in my experience, there can be a them and us dialogue between teachers and leaders. But you get those people in a room, you hear their goals are and what their challenges are. And then there's this kind of like levelling of the playing field where people are like, ⁓ God, you've got stuff going on as well. And so that's again that kind of connectedness and the power of having that through training and then keeping that going through regular coaching practice after the training is really the key thing to kind of keep it going. thing that we found in our research was that there was a shared understanding of people and the qualitative. ⁓ piece of information that people said was that when they walked past one another in the corridor after the trainings there was a look that they had of each other and it was this look one of the participants said I get you I was on I was on that course with you I feel you I see you I think that's a really kind of beautiful thing and creating more spaces for people to have that equality and vulnerability ⁓ really what's powerful about this work. So, yeah.

Shane Leaning: Well, I can't see the people who are listening in right now, but I know a lot of people will have been nodding furiously at what you were just saying there, Dean, that really...

Dean Clayden: I hope that answers the question.

Jim Thompson: and beautiful.

Shane Leaning: Well, we'll have to let Steve Barkley be the judge on this. And he says right on, he's already replied right on Dean, leaders model the model. Yeah, you you got a fan there. Well, you've got you've got a couple of fans in this room. ⁓ for sure. ⁓ Dean, I wonder if you've got any closing reflections before we we bring this wonderful conversation to a close and I'm going to call this part one of our conversation.

Dean Clayden: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: Thank you. Well, first of all, I'm just tickled pink that I got to meet Dean. I didn't know him ahead of time, but I feel like we're old friends now. I mean, this is what we like to do on this show. We like to kind of give you the feeling of cheers, where everybody knows your name and everybody's you came. And we know your name now, Dean, and we sure are glad you came. And thanks for making a difference with so many. ⁓ think that's what our show is about, giving a place for people to share this idea and cheerlead each other and have each other's backs. And as we go past each other in this ⁓ virtual hall, say, yeah, I got you and you got me. So thanks so much. Thanks so

Dean Clayden: Yeah. Thank you, Jim, and thank you, Shane, for the opportunity. It's such a great space to connect with more people. As I said at the beginning, the job's enough it is. This work's a joy to do because we're all just trying ⁓ to the day job. ⁓ As said, the coaching can really help to make everybody's day a little bit better.

Shane Leaning: Well, this has been the perfect end to my day. Thank you so much, Dean. Thank you, Jim, for this wonderful conversation. Thank you to those who tuned into us in live. We've got Steve, we've got Jason, we've got Everett there joining us live. Thank you to the puppy. Is the puppy there? Are you gonna bring the puppy into the... ⁓ my goodness, Jim, what a treat. What a treat we're getting. But thank you to...

Dean Clayden: to get the dogs? I've got three small lips, see which one counts. Come on guys!

Jim Thompson: It was a lovely, lovely...

Dean Clayden: This is just one.

Shane Leaning: Let's have a seat. This is how we get more viewers, Jim.

Dean Clayden: He's got his little Scottish tartan on as well, so very Scottish.

Shane Leaning: Odd brand. Odd brand.

Jim Thompson: It's like David's letter to the crazy Patrick's we have, you know?

Dean Clayden: sorry. ⁓

Shane Leaning: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, what a joy. Thank you everyone for joining us. If you're tuning in live, thank you for being here. If you're tuning in on the podcast, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, it's also great to have you here. If you're tuning in as a little pooch friend, it's wonderful to have you here too. Dean, Jim, thank you so much and until next time. Take care.

Jim Thompson: We'll see you June 18th.

Dean Clayden: Thanks guys. Lovely to meet you.

Jim Thompson: Thank you.