Heads Who Lead Beyond School | A Conversation with Chris Passey and Sam Crome

So, you've written the book, you're on the conference circuit, so why would you take on a headship right now? Well, my two guests today did exactly that this year, and what they've learned about sitting in both worlds, all at once, well it might surprise you. Hey, I'm Shane Leaning, welcome to Education Leaders the Chat Topping, international podcast for leaders in schools around the world. I'm an author and an organisational coach, and in this show I bring you the practical ideas and honest conversations to help you lead with confidence and clarity.

This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association and CC. Stay tuned to learn more. My guests today are Sam Crone and Chris Passi, and you've almost certainly come across their work. Sam is the author of one of my favourite books, The Power of Teams, he's an experienced leader who spent last year as a Trust Leader before stepping into primary headship this academic year.

And Chris, well he is wonderful, he's a co-author of Succeeding as a Deputy Head, he has just made a leap from deputy to head teacher at Kimchi School, which is an independent music school in the UK. Both of these people have built strong, incredible follow-ins online and on the conference circuit, and both decided that this year, for different reasons, was the right one to take on headship. What I really love about this conversation is how honest they both are about what shifts when you actually sit in that chair, a chair that I haven't sat in myself, and the empathy that they've gained for heads, being pitched to by external voices, oh my god, and also what they'd say to anyone on the other side of that relationship, you are going to love this, so let's jump right in. I was a deputy head for eight years, and I had the opportunity to apply to be head teacher at the same school.

I just made sense, I'd always had this desire to have control of some of the things that I wish I was able to turn in a second, so for instance, culture within the school or different practices or systems, and the opportunity came up, and I naively thought that having written a book on how to be successful as a deputy head, that success meant I was ready to step into headship. I wasn't wrong, but I wasn't 100% right, so my motivations for doing it were selfish in a sense, I wanted the job, I wanted to be a head teacher, and I still don't really know what that job looks like, I know what it's like on a day-to-day basis, but where we are now, we're a term and a half in, so we're in spring two, and I'm still trying to work out what the job is, so I guess my motivations for doing it were interesting and altogether naive. I'm really interested in that, Chris, because listeners know I've never sat in the chair as a head teacher, so I'm just in awe of you both, but you're both leaders who have been in, let's call it the system level leadership space, you're both active contributors to online discourse, you speak at conferences, you've worked with different schools in different ways, you've spoken to many, many educators, so the level of impact that you have is unquestionable, yet, Chris, you almost describe a calling towards a different kind of impact, still the head's chair called. When you were going into that, Chris, before we come into you, Sam, like what was coming into your head?

What was that difference that you say you naively envisioned? I think the difference was, I think I was gaslighting myself on a global stage, if that makes any sense. Very lucky to be in a position where I can do podcasts and do speaking and write books and of all of these things, and I think I was worried that I was floating away from the work that was happening at the chalk face, and I wasn't as present as I could be in my own school because I was doing all these flashy other things, and it was kind of like maybe a secret way of grounding myself back into the reality of the day-to-day job, except it wasn't grounding, it was kind of being buried six feet under a thousand emails a day, I think is what happened. I like that framing, I wonder, Sam, does any of that resonate for you, or have you got like a totally different feeling around that want and that transition for you?

Yeah, it's really interesting, actually, what Chris said about wanting to be kind of grounded back into something, because I feel like when you go out and about and you do lots of interesting fun things, education, you do kind of come back and the first thing I found in the past is to consider, well, where is my kind of community, where is my tribe, where am I putting down roots? But I've always been lucky enough to have a foot in either camp, you know, and have the grounding and the more fun, flashy stuff. So I can see exactly where Chris is coming from, and the six feet on the bit didn't make me laugh as well. I love that.

So there's like this, you are seeking a sense of a local grounding, a local community, it can feel a little bit like when you're working in that system space, maybe there's a slight disconnect or something like that. Yeah, there absolutely can be. And part of it as well is wanting to challenge yourself and see some of the stuff that I've spent ages thinking about, or have been lucky enough to have time and space to think about, can I actually do that? You know, can I walk the walk?

And that's kind of always played on my mind when I've written something or always tried to test it out as well. Having that kind of that community there to test out your theories on is it's really great. And when the power of teams came out, from all of my heads of year, I used to lie manage all the heads of year at my last school, came up to me. She actually read it really quickly after it came out, I was surprised that anybody I knew read the books.

I didn't mention it to anyone really at school that I was writing it. And she said, Oh, I've got a bone to pick with you. All that stuff in your book you've been doing to us for the last like three years. And I was like, yeah, well, I had to know that it all worked.

Well, it didn't work. Do you think that's generally an issue? Do you think there's many in the space that potentially haven't tested their ideas in the real world and that is potentially creating attention? Like it sounds like you've both kind of, you've jumped into this role and it feels like it's validating for some of the work you get to do, but many people who work in the think space or the thought space as your podcast talks about Chris, like have maybe not seen that tested in the way you two have been able to test it at least.

I think it's definitely a reality. I don't necessarily think it's an intended reality with a negative outcome. I think it's all in the eye of the receiver and the reader. You look online and you see people go, does anybody recommend a book on culture?

You go, okay, well, yeah, Nick Hart's written this. And you know that that person isn't going to sit down with a cup of tea next to a fire and go from page one to page 200. They're going to be like, there we go, that bit, please. And so I think when it comes to book writing at the moment, either you have to write something that is a tome, that somebody will be like, maybe your audience is going to be universities and this is academic and that'll be studied.

Or you can find this kind of hybrid of the two where you can go from start to finish, but you can also take out these really cool pieces. So, for instance, your book, Sam, is on my shelf. And if I'm really struggling, it's one of the same with yours, Shane. It's like, oh, there we go, that bit, I'll take this bit, please.

And I think it's in the receiver and leads us out in the thought space who aren't necessarily in schools on a day to day basis run the risk of having these kind of highfalutin, disconnected ideas, that if there isn't some way of connecting it to real work in real schools, even though it might be the most amazing kind of theory or concept or someone's come up with a new leadership theory, it's just not going to land with the audience. And then what we see is that contributing to a widening between the spaces of people who are doing the work and then the people who are not in schools at the same time. And I think that is a tension that is growing that maybe we can try and help. Sam, how does that resonate for you?

Do you feel this same tension? Do you feel we have a challenge in our sector between those who are on the ground in schools and those who are adjacent schools doing some of that thought work? Yeah, there's definitely two sides to it. I mean, when I was writing The Power of Teams, just doing the research behind it, it was really important to me that quite a big chunk of the book was actually about research from other sectors and pulled in other thoughts because you don't want to kind of get stuck in an echo chamber.

So I'm a big believer in being influenced by and attuned to things beyond the day to day world of a British school, which is where my main job is. So there's definitely no judgment for people offering services and thoughts who are not in that same context that Chris and I are in. But at the same time, every minute is very, very precious in a UK school. And there's a lot of noise coming in at all different angles for head teachers to navigate.

And you do think straight away whenever someone approaches you or having a conversation with someone, I'm thinking, how are you going to help me add value to my school? Because that's the only thing I've possibly got the time or headspace to do at the moment, anything else would be irresponsible. So I'd sort of judge it on a case by case basis. But essentially, that's the test for me is, do you have the experience and the skills right now to make an impact on what I'm working on that will match up with the priorities for my specific school?

So I don't think we're kind of in a crisis of having too many people outside of the realms of day to day school work. But as a leader, that's what I will always prioritize. And I know we've got a rise of probably consultants and the kind of education, sort of edgy celebrity world. But we've also got a massive rise in multi academy trusts and the way that they use their staff and the way that they use central team staff.

I started being a trust leader last year before this headship. And even I was thinking after a couple of months, I was still teaching one day a week, I was thinking, why am I out of touch here? So we'd have to be really, really cognizant of the fact that people might view you differently than not on school every day. Emkuis, has it changed you like going into that seat?

Has it changed your thoughts about that relationship between, you know, kind of outside of school and inside? And I'm, I'm really interested, like to just almost imagine if you two were to step outside of that headship and go back into what you were doing before. Has it made you think, well, I would maybe approach things slightly differently? It hasn't made a difference for me, but that's only because I think I've added to my experience.

So I'm now able to look back at my previous work. And, you know, I was regularly at conferences. Back in that world, I signed maybe six more book deals and things that are coming up that now I'm in the job, I've got to go, have no time for any of this. Cause as Sam says now, it feels really irresponsible because the day-to-day work in the school is so important, but that doesn't mean that every so often when I look up, I don't want these wonderful inspirational people who are doing the thinking and working with schools and sat there with time to cogitate and really think through the things that I might need to cherry pick from and take inspiration from.

So it's really important to me that they're there and to be able to just say, sorry, you've never done the job. You're of absolute no use to me, I think is the wrong attitude to have. It's the duality of looking out and looking in at the same time. And my analogy is of that kind of the Olympic swimmer, unless you're doing that, that 100 meters, your head's got to be down, but we're rarely doing the 100 meters.

If successful school leadership is about kind of, okay, we've got a 5,000 meter race and every so often you've got to look up, you've got to take in air, you've got to take in inspiration and work and help from other people. And if that help comes from a consultant who is doing some great work, who was previously a head teacher or who was previously a systems leader or somebody who's just gone, do you know what, I think this is really good. Then I think that all for the better, there is so much room for all of us. I think it's completely false argument to say that consultants aren't needed.

Between you, you've both framed this as, you know, it sounds like your mind hasn't been changed on that need for kind of these different voices in the sector, but almost like how you've said it, Sam, you know, being ahead, that you have to have a filter when looking where outsiders to go, is this going to help me right now with where my school is at? And that's become very important to you, not just for your school, but also for your sanity, I guess, with the amount of communications you get. Yeah, absolutely. And you have to prioritize certainly what's the most important thing that's right in front of you.

And just to go back to what you were both saying then as well, I think the great advantage that people going around schools have as they're seeing tons and tons of different practice. And my, the school I'm at the moment is not in my trust, but it's kind of moving into the trust. And I'm essentially calling people for my trust most days and going, oh, can you just tell me what a couple of the schools are doing with end of year reports or yada, yada, yada. So I'm really lucky that I'm in a trust.

But if I wasn't in a trust, I didn't have that network, then I would be looking at people that go around schools regularly for support with that. So there's something really valuable about seeing current practice and what works and what doesn't work in places too. So there's definitely, as Chris said, a role for both. What about those schools that are independent? Chris, your school isn't

part of a network. Am I right in that? You're totally independent. So, so for Sam, you've got a trust to lean on with your position.

Like, where does that sit for you, Chris? Does it make your job more lonely or are you relying on other networks? So for people who aren't aware of my context, my executive head, Sally, she opened the school in 2014. It's a music specialist school.

We are an independent school, but we, I believe, have some of the lowest fees in the entire country. It's about 40 quid a day. If you're a full-time year, 11 students, it's kind of cheaper than childcare. And if it could be free, it would be. What we've found is that

we're actually more attractive to people who can't cope in mainstream schools who aren't able to sit in those systems where things like ADHD are kind of slightly misunderstood, et cetera. We've just opened a second school in Worcester, despite the political and economic duress that's been placed on us recently. And I guess we've had to rely on each other. So any systems we've built, our school runs off a Google Drive.

We don't have an M.I.S. We don't have a central team to call. We don't have an L.A.

officer. We don't have an attendance person at the L.A. Everything is in-house.

This isn't martyrdom like on the day-to-day basis with my exec head and some amazing members of staff. I am the cleaner and the nurse and the teacher. I'm all of these things. And it's about prioritizing what's most important at the time.

And so if I'm like, OK, curriculum isn't quite working right now and I don't have the people around me that can help me, I must turn to my friends. I'm very, very lucky now that some of my friends are some of the biggest voices right now in education. But that's luck. And I wouldn't have found them had I not two years ago looked up and gone, I wonder if there are other people who have been doing this. Why am I trying to

reinvent the wheel? Has somebody already thought of this? And it was at that point that I picked up Sarah Cotting at Meaningful Learning, the Ajabel book. And then Adam said to me, have you read this book by Sam Gibbs?

It's about English. And the moment I read it, I immediately changed English curriculum in the school and the GCSE results shot through the ceiling. But that's because I looked up and I wasn't all we're independent, so we do things differently. We do and I do most things differently because I don't agree with how big systems work and they wouldn't work for my kids and my small community.

So I had to look up to these people doing the thinking. And that's really, really important for an independent school that doesn't have a system to line or a team, because you guys are my team. You guys are my system that I'll lean on and 4 a.m.

voice notes because you're in Shanghai. Shane is like, do you know what I mean? It's really, it's really important to me. Yeah, I hear you and I feel the same. Sam, I see you

nodding. What are you thinking? Yeah, it's fun. That's profoundly interesting actually.

Chris is very specific context. The school I'm at the moment, I've never worked in primary before until this year. So one form entry and not full either. So it's a very small community. And I think in

the past, they've had no connections or voices outside to support them. So it's easy to become quite insular, I think, when you haven't got that network around you. So, yeah, I definitely think as a system, I'm hoping with the rise of trusts and other kind of even more informal network groups and having more exposure to people kind of online as well, that we can kind of continue building great communities for schools because I don't know how you would do it without a group of voices around you to soundboard or pinch resources from or just listen to you then after a difficult day. And there's there's definitely a trend.

It's not just in the UK, it's, you know, internationally of schools joining these bigger groups of schools. And, you know, that can bring that advantage of community. It can bring some challenges as well, such as, you know, how much autonomy you get as a leader in your school. But it definitely brings that connection.

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S-I-S-I.org. I wonder if for you both, if there was kind of heads listening who did feel that actually, you know, I'm quite envious of Chris and Sam's position because they managed to sit in both worlds. They've got their heads shipped, but they also get to engage in this bigger education conversation.

And I want some of that and wouldn't know where to start. I wonder if you were speaking to another head in front of you now who was looking to get into that space as well, having sat in the seat for a little while, where would you advise they start to think? I think Chris and I, we both said actually off air that we've actually reduced the amount of external things that we've done this year. So I've greatly reduced things like conference attendance and kind of getting involved in extra projects and being more selective about what I say yes to because for me, I've got a much bigger responsibility now, which is a school community.

So I've had to be more selective. So I think that would be a bit of advice. I would have people choose what's really, really going to add value and be important to you and your school. I think my advice alongside that would be I think you've also got to have confidence in your own ability.

So what makes me the person I am, which is I'm quite confident and outgoing and my personality craves that attention and that applause. So because I'm a performer, so I love giving speeches and I love writing and I love getting that buzz from other people. But that's not to say as maybe a more quiet or introverted head that you don't have something to say. So I think the thing to do is to just start, get a sub stack, get a blog, put yourself out there, but have the resilience you have in your day to day to take the slings and arrows of criticism and misfortune that are definitely going to come your way.

I remember when I first started, I put an opinion on Twitter, which was about positive handling. And I was very kind of very sure of myself. I've not got any training in it. My staff haven't got any training in it because if you know how to do it, you're more likely to do it.

And I don't agree with it, so it's not happening. And somebody kind of looked up where my school was. And we're a private school, so despite kind of three quarters of the children paying nothing whatsoever because we really are a charity, that it was like, how dare you? You own your privilege.

There's 2000 kids in my school. And if I don't know how to tackle them, then they'll bring knives and this kind of stuff, which I thought was a very extreme view. But you have to have confidence in that opinion. And I didn't.

So I deleted the tweet and ran away and hid under a rock when actually nowadays I probably would have tried to engage in a bit more of an intelligent conversation. If you can have that on Twitter anymore, fine. But I think having the courage of your convictions and the confidence to go, I'm good at my job because I care about the kids and I care about the people I work with, then that would be my advice is to agree with Sam, be selective, but then have courage. Yeah, it is a courageous thing.

I mean, for one, it's a courageous thing what you've done, by the way, just going into headship. I think it's incredible. But yeah, also the other way round, to be able to put yourself into the public sphere, to take yourself out of your context and put thoughts into the world is a real place of vulnerability. And you've both done it so well with all of your work.

I wonder if we could flip that question a little then and think about people like myself who are working with a lot of schools and maybe who are sitting in, whether it be in universities, whether it be in consultancy, whether it be in coaching or training and development, all these different amazing spaces, writing books, who are wanting to support schools the best they can, but really want to get it right for those heads who are bringing them in. I wonder what you would say in a conversation with them having been on both sides. Maybe we start with Chris on this one. My advice would be the head teachers and leaders out there have a desk and this desk is going to be full of the paperwork they left in the morning to come to your session.

It's still going to be there when they get back. So, first of all, the advice you are giving out, the value you're adding to the school is adding, it's rarely taking away. So, leaders, what we're faced with is a hundred choices and we've got to pick one. And I always say that the one you pick, your actions betray your priority.

So, if you're focusing on staff well-being and you're ignoring the thing that's going on outside that should have your attention, that's okay. It's okay to sit in that decision you've made and you've let that other person down. We're going to deal with that later. The parents are angry because you've not made time for them.

You made that decision. You cannot be like, oh, I'm such a bad leader because I didn't pick the parents. Own it. I didn't pick the parents.

They're not important to me right now. I need to focus on this and they will be important at some point. And as a person coming in to help us, being cognizant of that, being empathetic of the fact that whenever you're adding to my life, you are definitely adding, that you aren't taking anything away. And so, I will still go back to my desk and I'll have had a wonderful enriching thing and I'll still look at all my mountain of paperwork and kind of go, that was lovely, put it to one side and keep going, which is why I think kind of iterative PD is so important and being able to come back to it because I'm going to forget.

My ADHD means I've already forgotten what question you asked at the beginning of this conversation, whilst, right? So, I think my advice is we are people too and the magic dust you're sprinkling on top of our wonderful educational cake is exactly that and it's then going to be up to me to work that into my daily practice. Please be aware that I am choosing you over other things and that whatever you're bringing should probably make my life sparklier. I like that and empathy is such an important word here and it's making me think at the time also when I was in leadership across a group of schools and how easy it was for me to go into a school, to go and watch some lessons, to go see some things and to go, you need to do this, this, this, this, this, get in this person, like these are things that you need to do and that head teacher, having to empathise, that head teacher has to be ruthless in their prioritisation of what they do and it might look so easy from the outside.

These things are things you need to switch but you've got to make a decision as to what you do and importantly, what you don't do and I think we who sit in a slightly different seat in the sector have to be cognisant, respectful and empathetic towards that. This sort of tick list of things you just spoke about there, Shane's really interesting because I think what consultants or trust leaders have to be aware of is that if you go into a school and I don't know, you go around and look at some lessons and you write down or record a whole bunch of stuff that you've seen, let's say for example, you go into a school and there hasn't been consistency in what you've seen in the way they've done as a starter activity. If you write that down and it goes to your report and the chair of governors or a trustee gets hold of that, that thing that you've seen in two minutes that might not even be a reality might get committed to an action plan and then the school leader might have to spend months and months proving they do actually do that thing quite well and this leads on to my next point that people that are coming into schools whether you work in a trust or a different organisation or you're a consultant on your own don't make assumptions that you know what really is going on from the small window that you've seen and I remember we would probably all learn to coach but I remember the hardest thing I found about learning to coach was silencing the voice in your head that says that you know more about the situation than them and that you've got the answer for them and actually to be more curious to ask better questions to really dig into what they're talking about instead of going, oh, I've got some advice here maybe I should interject now. I think it's the same thing applies when you're going into a school as an outside voice or giving an outside view to someone at a conference or whatever it's that don't make any assumptions you know loads and loads about their context get to know the context really, really well and then ask brilliantly curious open questions to dig further into that because that's when you'll start adding value when you start helping that person to think more deeply about their own situation not by assuming, oh, I saw this kind of thing at the school last week so I'm just gonna give them a load of advice about that because that might make the main thing not the main thing for that school leader and then going back to what Chris said you've then just added something else for them to look out or be held accountable for.

So yeah, I think assumptions are the death of kind of good advice and good support. That's great assumptions are the death of good advice. I'm taking that forward. I think that was excellent.

I think as well it's important to know that whilst we are going our heads down and we're working is that when we look up we're waiting for those inspirational moments we're asking for those inspirational thoughts. So as a consultant or a trust leader keep doing the work, keep putting your thoughts out there because they are going to be wanted and needed by someone. And I think that as Sam said as the roles are getting more varied as trusts are getting larger and they are perhaps inviting fewer people in which is maybe a good thing because they're looking for that internal expertise and they're looking for that internal knowledge is that your voice has value and your voice is wanted. It's about kind of that field of dreams idea.

If you build it, they will come put those thoughts out there make sure they are accessible and they aren't as Sam just said making assumptions. This is how to do it. And it's really difficult not to have that binary conversation. I hate binary conversations but you only have to jump onto social media years ago.

If you don't do it like A then you are a terrible person or worse you're evil and you're torturing these kids and then the other side but if you do it like B that's negligence and you shouldn't be doing that either. I think it's really dangerous to sit in an education world where we just say this is the only way it works and I'll see you later. I will absolutely throw a catamut to finish that and I will say project-based learning because Guinapari who runs the XP Trust there's a lot of project-based learning. There's no standardised curriculum they learn English, maths and science through project-based things and his schools are all rated outstanding.

You can't tell me it doesn't work and those kids aren't getting value for money because he's doing something that's a little bit naughty and a little bit spicy and it doesn't work so why would you do it? Dylan Williams said that everything works somewhere and nothing works everywhere and I don't know why that isn't above every school door. Wow, what an honest conversation. There's something really brave about Chris and Sam being so open about a transition we don't talk enough about in our sector.

The move from a thought leader to a school leader in their case doing both at the same time. Wow, amazing. A few things that really stuck with me here. Chris's line about gaslighting myself on a global stage.

Boom. I think a lot of us who work in a wider space need to sit with that one. It is so easy to mistake activity for impact or to confuse a packed conference schedule with actually moving the needle in the school. I like Sam's message as well about assumptions are the death of good advice.

Super important point there. Whether you're walking in school as a consultant, a coach, a trust leader or an inspector, your two minute window does not tell you what's really going on. You have to lead therefore with curiosity, not conclusions. And Chris's Olympic swimmer metaphor of how we have our heads down so much of the time just coming up for air.

Occasionally that's a really useful frame I thought for leaders who are trying to balance their daily work with the bigger picture. For those of you wondering how you can find your own voice in the wider sector, take their advice seriously. Start small, have courage, be ruthlessly selective about what you say yes to and your school always comes first. You can find Sam and Chris along with the links to their books in the show notes.

Education Leaders is hosted by me, Shane Leaney. Thanks so much to the show editor, Pete McGill, production assistant, Skylar Rose-Sturman and for the original music by Guillerme Silva. And thank you so, so much for tuning in today. If we don't speak before as ever, I'll see you here next week.

If you wanna learn more about CC or the International curriculum association, check out the links in the show notes.